英文名称：The Report
年代：2019
推荐：千部英美剧台词本阅读
| 时间 | 英文 | 中文 |
|---|---|---|
| [00:54] | 本片基于参议院情报委员会 对中情局拘留和审讯项目的调查结果 | |
| [01:01] | How long you been working on this project, Dan? | 你进行这项调查有多久了 丹 |
| [01:04] | Five years. | 五年 |
| [01:07] | Five. | 五年 |
| [01:10] | Every day? Nights, weekends? | 每天从早到晚 外加周末吗 |
| [01:14] | It’s been very consuming. | 非常辛苦 |
| [01:18] | 帕涅塔审查报告 最高机密 敏感信息隔离 | |
| [01:20] | Do you have a relationship, Dan? Family? | 丹 你有伴侣吗 或者家人 |
| [01:23] | Just trying to get a better sense of who you are. | 我只是想更好地了解你 |
| [01:27] | When it started, I was seeing someone, but, you know, | 刚开始的时候 我在和别人约会 但是 |
| [01:30] | with the nature of the work and the hours… | 考虑到工作性质和时间 |
| [01:33] | I wasn’t a very good partner. | 我不是一个很好的伴侣 |
| [01:39] | Five years, and it could all go away. | 五年 一切成果都可能化为乌有 |
| [01:43] | Just vanish in the face of these allegations. | 因为这些指控而烟消云散 |
| [01:46] | I can certainly imagine | 我完全能想象 |
| [01:48] | an ambitious young man like yourself spends years | 像你这样雄心勃勃的年轻人花费数年的时间 |
| [01:51] | with his head buried in some terrible spectacle, | 埋头于调查一些可怕的场面 |
| [01:54] | gets frustrated with the process, | 对调查过程感到沮丧 |
| [01:56] | sees an opportunity to get the truth out faster, | 遇到一个能更快传出真相的机会 |
| [01:59] | maybe crosses a line. | 也许会选择越界 |
| [02:01] | I’m assuming this is the most important thing | 我猜这是你参与过的 |
| [02:02] | – you’ve ever been a part of. – I didn’t do it. | -最重要的事情 -我没做 |
| [02:03] | Or I can see an equally ambitious senator | 又或是一位同样雄心勃勃的参议员 |
| [02:05] | encouraging you to do something. | 鼓励你去做点什么 |
| [02:07] | Now would be a good time to tell me. | 现在是告诉我的好机会 |
| [02:08] | That did not happen. What I did, I did on my own. | 不是那样的 我的所作所为是个人行为 |
| [02:12] | I acted alone. | 我独自行动 |
| [02:13] | You ever sleep, bro? | 你睡过觉吗 兄弟 |
| [02:15] | I used to. Got in the way of work. | 我以前会睡 后来妨碍工作了 |
| [02:18] | Anything in that bag contain the real names | 包里有任何物品包含 |
| [02:20] | of CIA officers, assets or partners, | 中情局职员 线人或合作伙伴的真名 |
| [02:22] | or any information that would be in violation | 或任何会违反 |
| [02:24] | of the agreement between the Central Intelligence Agency | 中央情报局和美国参议院 |
| [02:27] | and the United States Senate? | 之间协议的信息吗 |
| [02:30] | – Have a good night, Jay. – You, too, Dan. | -晚安 杰伊 -你也是 丹 |
| [02:34] | So, you did steal the document? | 你确实偷了文件 |
| [02:35] | I did not steal it. I relocated it. | 我没偷 我转移了它 |
| [02:37] | Everyone has their own words. | 每个人都各执一词 |
| [02:38] | The language is built to choose sides. | 语言是用来选择立场的 |
| [02:40] | Now, why did you relocate it? | 你为什么要转移它 |
| [02:44] | They could send you to jail, Dan. | 他们会把你送进监狱的 丹 |
| 本电影台词包含不重复单词：1991个。 其中的生词包含：四级词汇：427个，六级词汇：245个，GRE词汇：245个，托福词汇：350个，考研词汇：472个，专四词汇：409个，专八词汇：73个， 所有生词标注共：774个。 定制生词标注的台词本和单词统计，请访问生词标注台词本 | ||
| [02:57] | I think I should start at the beginning. | 我想我应该从头讲起 |
| [03:40] | – You Dan Jones? – Yeah. | -你是丹·琼斯吗 -是 |
| [03:42] | Denis McDonough. | 丹尼斯·麦克唐纳 |
| [03:43] | Thank you so much for meeting me. | 非常感谢您能见我 |
| [03:43] | Come on in. Yeah. Absolutely. | 进来吧 别客气 |
| [03:46] | So, thanks for coming in. | 感谢你能来 |
| [03:48] | Tell me your story. | 讲讲你的故事吧 |
| [03:49] | My second day of grad school was September 11th. | 我读研究生的第二天是9月11日 |
| [03:51] | I was headed to a lecture, and everything just… stopped. | 我正要去听课 突然间一切都停止了 |
| [03:55] | The next day, I changed all my classes to national security. | 第二天 我把课都换成了国家安全方向的 |
| [03:58] | Good man. | 好样的 |
| [04:00] | So, what’s the long-term plan? | 你的长期规划呢 |
| [04:02] | Where do you see yourself in ten years? | 十年后你觉得自己能做成什么样 |
| [04:04] | Are you running for office? | 要竞选公职吗 |
| [04:04] | No. No politics for me. | 不 我对政治没什么兴趣 |
| [04:06] | I think I’d be more effective behind the scenes, | 我想我在幕后会更有效 |
| [04:08] | somewhere I can really make a difference. | 在真的可以有所作为的地方效力 |
| [04:10] | So, what about before Harvard? | 去哈佛之前呢 |
| [04:12] | What’d you fill up your days with then? | 你是怎么打发日子的 |
| [04:13] | Teach For America for three years in Baltimore. | 在巴尔的摩”为美国而教”项目工作了三年 |
| [04:16] | Seventh-graders. | 教七年级学生 |
| [04:17] | I read that you taught high school Spanish | 我了解到你大学毕业后在明尼苏达州圣保罗 |
| [04:19] | in Saint Paul, Minnesota, after college? | 教高中西班牙语 |
| [04:21] | And LBJ’s first job was teaching | 林登·约翰逊的第一份工作是在 |
| [04:22] | at the Mexican school in South Texas. | 德克萨斯南部的墨西哥学校教书 |
| [04:24] | Knowing how to deal with children | 知道如何和孩子相处 |
| [04:26] | is a highly useful skill when working on the Hill. | 是在国会工作时非常有用的技能 |
| [04:29] | But from my perspective as Senate staff, | 但从我作为参议院职员的角度来看 |
| [04:32] | I would wait until things turn around up here. | 我建议你等到我们击败共和党后再加入 |
| [04:36] | I think Senator Daschle would say the same thing. | 我想达施勒参议员也会这么说 |
| [04:38] | Go get some real-world experience in counterterrorism, | 去学习一些现实经验 比如从事反恐领域 |
| [04:42] | in… foreign policy. | 从事外交政策 |
| [04:44] | Try the CIA. Try FBI. | 试试中情局 试试联调局 |
| [04:47] | Have them teach you what they don’t teach you in a classroom. | 让他们教你在教室里学不到的东西 |
| [04:49] | Then you can come back here, and… | 然后你可以回到这里 然后 |
| [04:51] | help us fix all the things that Bush and Cheney are breaking. | 帮我们收拾布什和切尼留下的烂摊子 |
| [04:54] | McDonough. | 我是麦克唐纳 |
| [04:56] | Yes, Senator, uh, one second. | 是的 参议员 等一下 |
| [04:58] | The boss. Here. | 是上司 拿着 |
| [05:01] | Keep in touch, huh? | 保持联系 好吗 |
| [05:03] | – Thank you very much for your time. – Absolutely. | -非常感谢你抽出时间 -不客气 |
| [05:04] | I do not have that information right now, | 我现在没有这个信息 |
| [05:06] | but I can certainly get that for you in the next 15. | 但我一定能在十五分钟内给你弄到 |
| [05:10] | Yeah. | 好 |
| [05:17] | In regards to the bomb plots in Germany, | 关于德国的炸弹袭击阴谋 |
| [05:18] | three men were arrested in Medebach | 三个人在梅德巴赫被捕 |
| [05:20] | with 1,500 pounds of hydrogen peroxide | 搜获680千克过氧化氢 |
| [05:22] | and 26 military-grade detonators. | 以及26个军用级雷管 |
| [05:25] | The CIA suspects the Islamic Jihad Union… | 中情局怀疑伊斯兰圣战联盟… |
| [05:27] | Excuse me. | 打扰一下 |
| [05:28] | Can I borrow you for a minute, Dan? | 能跟我来一下吗 丹 |
| [05:29] | Senator would like to see you. | 参议员想见你 |
| [05:31] | Yeah, of course. | 没问题 |
| [05:36] | – Morning, Dan. – Morning, Senator. | -早上好 丹 -早上好 参议员 |
| [05:39] | Have you seen the story today in The New York Times? | 今天《纽约时报》的报道你看了吗 |
| [05:41] | No, Senator, I have not. | 没有 参议员 我还没看 |
| [05:42] | Evidently, the CIA destroyed tapes | 显然 中情局销毁了 |
| [05:44] | of interrogations of Al Qaeda detainees. | 对基地组织在押人员的审讯录像带 |
| [05:48] | Did the Intel Committee know there were tapes? | 情报委员会知道有录像带吗 |
| [05:51] | No. This is the first I’ve heard of it. | 不 这是我第一次听说 |
| [05:54] | So, I want to find out what was on the tapes | 我想知道录像带上记录了什么 |
| [05:57] | and why they were destroyed. | 以及它们被销毁的原因 |
| [05:58] | We want you to lead the investigation, Dan. | 我们要你来领导调查 丹 |
| [06:03] | But if the tapes were destroyed, how do we… | 但是如果录像带被销毁了 我们怎么… |
| [06:05] | They’re saying they have written records. | 他们说他们有书面记录 |
| [06:07] | Thousands of pages. Let’s see about that. | 成千上万页 我们看看到底有没有 |
| [06:11] | I want you to find out exactly what they have | 我要你弄清楚他们到底有什么 |
| [06:13] | and read every word of it. | 每个字都要读 |
| [06:21] | This report on the destruction of tapes by the CIA | 这份关于中情局销毁录像带的报告 |
| [06:24] | – has been two years in the making. – Thank you. | -调查耗时两年 -谢谢 |
| [06:27] | The findings are very troubling, | 调查结果非常令人担忧 |
| [06:29] | 参议院情报特别委员会 敏感信息隔离设施 | |
| [06:30] | but it will remain classified. | 但它仍然属于机密 |
| [06:32] | Based on these revelations, a larger study into | 基于这些发现 一次更大规模的 |
| [06:36] | the entire CIA Detention and Interrogation Program | 针对整个中情局拘留和审讯项目的调查 |
| [06:40] | is clearly in order. | 显然十分必要 |
| [06:43] | All in favor, say “yay.” | 赞成者 请说”赞成” |
| [06:46] | – Mr. Whitehouse? – Yay. | -怀特豪斯先生 -赞成 |
| [06:48] | – Mr. Berg? – Yay. | -博格先生 -赞成 |
| [06:51] | – Mr. Rockefeller? – Yay. | -洛克菲勒先生 -赞成 |
| [06:54] | Mr. Chambliss? | 钱布利斯先生 |
| [06:56] | – Nay. – Mr. Risch? | -反对 -里施先生 |
| [06:58] | I think this is a waste of time. | 我认为这是浪费时间 |
| [07:00] | Now, I know you voted against this, Saxby… | 我知道你投了反对票 萨克斯比 |
| [07:02] | But you already had your tapes investigation. | 但你已经调查过录像带的事了 |
| [07:05] | Yes, but the rest of us voted to go further, 14 to one. | 是的 但我们都赞成进一步调查 十四票对一票 |
| [07:09] | It’s our job to provide oversight. | 提供监督是我们的职责 |
| [07:11] | All during the campaign, | 在竞选期间 |
| [07:13] | you got candidate Obama saying | 你们的候选人奥巴马声称 |
| [07:15] | how he wanted to be the first post-partisan president. | 他想成为第一位后党派总统 |
| [07:19] | Saxby, you know me. | 萨克斯比 你了解我 |
| [07:20] | It’s my intention that this report be seen | 我希望人们将这份报告视作 |
| [07:22] | as coming from the entire Intelligence Committee, | 整个情报委员会的共同努力 |
| [07:24] | not just the Democrats. | 不仅仅是来自民主党 |
| [07:26] | So, who takes the lead? | 那谁来领导调查 |
| [07:28] | Well, I was thinking Dan Jones. | 我考虑的人选是丹·琼斯 |
| [07:31] | He spent four years doing counterterrorism at the FBI. | 他在联调局从事了四年反恐工作 |
| [07:34] | He’s already got the security clearances. | 他已经拿到了安全许可 |
| [07:36] | The rules are the same as the tapes investigation. | 规则和录像带调查一样 |
| [07:40] | No politics, no bias, | 不含政治 不含偏见 |
| [07:42] | and the senator isn’t interested | 参议员对观点或理论 |
| [07:43] | in opinions or theories, just facts. | 不感兴趣 只要事实 |
| [07:45] | Based on what you found out already, | 根据你已经发现的情况 |
| [07:47] | this could go to a pretty dark place. | 接着查下去可能很可怕 |
| [07:50] | You need to keep your personal feelings out of it. | 你得把你的个人感情排除在外 |
| [07:52] | That’s the first thing Republicans are gonna look for. | 这是共和党人最看重的一点 |
| [07:55] | No talking to the press or your girlfriend | 不能跟媒体或你女友 |
| [07:57] | or any family members. | 或任何家庭成员谈论这起调查 |
| [07:59] | Nobody outside of the committee. | 委员会之外的人都不行 |
| [08:01] | You’re gonna get a team of six… | 你会得到一个六人的团队 |
| [08:03] | three Republicans, three Democrats… | 三个共和党人 三个民主党人 |
| [08:04] | but there can’t be any Republican sentences | 但报告里不能有任何共和党的陈词 |
| [08:07] | or Democratic paragraphs. | 或者是民主党的段落 |
| [08:09] | And how long do we have? | 我们有多长时间 |
| [08:10] | We’re hoping you can wrap it up in a year or so. | 我们希望你能在一年左右的时间内完成报告 |
| [08:14] | You’re gonna have to keep the senators updated on your work. | 你得向参议员汇报你的最新进展 |
| [08:17] | Nobody wants any surprises. | 没人想要突发信息 |
| [08:20] | There’s a covert CIA off-site in Virginia. | 弗吉尼亚州有一个秘密的中情局办公室 |
| [08:22] | You start tomorrow. | 你明天开始工作 |
| [08:23] | Jones, right? Sean. | 琼斯 对吧 我是肖恩 |
| [08:26] | – Hi. Dan. – Sean Murphy from the Agency. | -你好 我是丹 -我是中情局的肖恩·墨菲 |
| [08:29] | – Let’s go inside. – Okay. | -我们进去吧 -好的 |
| [08:36] | Identification, gentlemen. | 身份证明 先生们 |
| [08:38] | The room we’ve designated is a SCIF. | 我们指定的房间是敏感信息隔离设施 |
| [08:41] | No phone reception, no photos… you know the drill… | 没有电话信号 不能拍照 你知道的 |
| [08:43] | lead walls. | 铅墙 |
| [08:46] | And, per the agreement, | 根据协议 |
| [08:47] | the room is off-limits to everyone | 这个房间禁止 |
| [08:49] | – except committee personnel. – Absolutely. | -委员会以外的人进入 -当然 |
| [08:51] | No one inside without your permission. | 没有你的允许谁都不能进去 |
| [09:03] | – And the computers? – Right here. | -电脑呢 -就在这里 |
| [09:05] | Your own dedicated server, air-gapped workstations. | 你自己的专用服务器 气隙工作站 |
| [09:07] | We’ll be updating the database as we go. | 我们根据进展随时更新数据库 |
| [09:09] | The files will be loaded on here as we collect them | 我们从局里收集文件时 |
| [09:11] | – from across the Agency. – Great. | -会把它们放在这里 -很好 |
| [09:13] | We’ll want all relevant documents as soon as possible. | 我们需要尽快拿到所有相关文件 |
| [09:15] | – Well, we got to vet it first. – Vet? | -我们得先进行审查 -审查 |
| [09:16] | There’s a lot to… | 有很多文件需要审查… |
| [09:18] | Director Panetta agreed to give us | 帕涅塔局长同意提供 |
| [09:19] | everything pertaining to the program. | 与项目有关的所有资料 |
| [09:21] | Wh-Who would be, who would be vetting it? | 由谁进行审查 |
| [09:23] | It’s a big agency. | 这是个大机构 |
| [09:25] | We got to make sure you don’t get anything | 我们要确保你不会看到 |
| [09:26] | you’re not supposed to. | 你不该看的东西 |
| [09:55] | Make yourself at home. | 别拘束 |
| [10:05] | There’s… no printer? | 没有打印机吗 |
| [10:08] | No paper. | 没有纸 |
| [10:10] | No documents are allowed to leave the room | 没有中情局的批准 |
| [10:12] | without CIA approval. | 文件不准离开房间 |
| [10:14] | Paper has a way of getting people in trouble at our place. | 纸在中情局可是个麻烦事 |
| [10:20] | I think at some point we’re gonna need a printer. | 我们迟早会需要打印机 |
| [10:23] | And paper. | 还有纸 |
| [10:24] | At our place… | 在参议院 |
| [10:27] | paper’s how we keep track of laws. | 纸是我们记录法律的途径 |
| [10:33] | Okay. | 好吧 |
| [11:06] | 最高机密 中情局简报备忘录 | |
| [11:11] | 否认知情 情况紧急 | |
| [11:11] | …calling this an obvious terrorist attack | …将此事称为显而易见的恐怖袭击 |
| [11:13] | 2001年9月11日 反恐中心 | |
| [11:15] | based on very preliminary information, | 基于非常初步的信息 |
| [11:18] | the information that intelligence officials are getting… | 情报职员目前正在获取的信息… |
| [11:21] | You’re not gonna like this. | 坏消息 |
| [11:22] | …a possible hijacked plane, and of course | 可能是一起劫机事件 当然 |
| [11:24] | the-the very horrifying video of the plane… | 关于飞机的那段非常可怕的视频… |
| [11:28] | We confirmed some of the names. | 我们确认了一些名字 |
| [11:30] | The hijackers? | 劫机者的名字吗 |
| [11:31] | Two of the guys from the Malaysia meetings. | 马来西亚会议中两名参会者的名字 |
| [11:33] | The San Diego guys. They took down Flight 77. | 那两个圣地亚哥人 他们劫持了77号航班 |
| [11:36] | Pentagon. | 五角大楼 |
| [11:37] | …the coordination that took place to have two planes hit the towers… | 让两架飞机撞击大楼的配合… |
| [11:41] | Attention, everyone, please. | 大家请注意 |
| [11:42] | We have reason to believe the Counterterrorism Center | 我们有理由相信 反恐中心 |
| [11:45] | is a potential target. | 是潜在的袭击目标 |
| [11:47] | We’re asking all personnel to evacuate, immediately. | 请所有人员立即撤离 |
| [11:50] | Jim Miklaszewski there from the Pentagon. | 吉姆·米克拉泽夫斯基在五角大楼为您报道 |
| [11:52] | Of course, the president has the authority | 当然 总统有权 |
| [11:53] | to scramble military, uh, forces, | 出动军队 |
| [11:56] | and, uh, this is a case, obviously, | 并且很显然 目前的情况 |
| [11:58] | in which, uh, retaliation, | 如果证实 |
| [11:59] | if indeed it proves to be a terrorist incident, | 确实是恐怖袭击 |
| [12:02] | will be contemplated. | 将会进行军事报复 |
| [12:04] | We also have to work, though, | 不过 我们也得做些 |
| [12:05] | 中情局总部 2001年9月16日 | |
| [12:06] | sort of, the-the dark side, if you will. | 见不得光的工作 可以这么说 |
| [12:08] | We’ve got to spend time in the shadows | 我们得花些时间在暗处 |
| [12:09] | in-in the intelligence world. | 进行情报工作 |
| [12:12] | A lot of what needs to be done here | 有很多必做之事 |
| [12:14] | will have to be done quietly, without any discussion… | 将被悄无声息地完成 不经过任何讨论 |
| [12:17] | Fucking warned them. | 我他妈警告过他们了 |
| [12:18] | August 6th presidential briefing: | 8月6日对总统进行的简报 |
| [12:20] | “Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in U.S.” | “本·拉登决定袭击美国” |
| [12:22] | “Flashing red lights.” | “情况紧急” |
| [12:24] | And before that, in July, what did we say? | 在那之前呢 7月时我们怎么说的 |
| [12:27] | “There will be significant terrorist attacks | “接下来的数周乃至数月内 |
| [12:29] | against the United States in the weeks and months to come.” | 将有针对美国的重大恐怖袭击” |
| [12:34] | It’s not your fault. | 不是你的错 |
| [12:35] | It is a mean, nasty, dangerous, uh, dirty business out there, | 那是种恶毒不堪 危险肮脏的行当 |
| [12:39] | and we have to operate in that arena. | 而我们得在其中开展行动 |
| [12:41] | But we need to make certain that we have not | 但我们需要确定 我们没有 |
| [12:43] | tied the hands, if you will, of our intelligence community. | 束缚我们的情报机构 |
| [12:47] | Counterterrorism Director Black and I saw President Bush | 我和反恐中心主任布莱克 |
| [12:49] | at Camp David this weekend. | 这周末在戴维营见了布什总统 |
| [12:52] | And the president gave me his word that there will be | 总统向我保证 中情局的领导层 |
| [12:53] | no changes in CIA leadership as a result of Tuesday’s attacks. | 不会因周二的袭击而发生变动 |
| [12:57] | We will look forward now, | 我们现在要向前看 |
| [12:59] | not waste time second-guessing or looking for blame. | 不能浪费时间去马后炮或追责 |
| [13:03] | Going forward, we will be the tip of the spear | 接下来 我们要成为 |
| [13:05] | in the battle against Al Qaeda. | 与基地组织之战的尖兵 |
| [13:07] | As I said to the president, two weeks, | 我跟总统保证了 两周时间 |
| [13:10] | we’ll have flies walking across Al Qaeda eyeballs. | 我们要在基地组织眼皮底下安排探子 |
| [13:12] | I’ve asked Chief Counsel Rizzo here to walk us through | 我邀请了首席法律顾问里佐来向我们说明 |
| [13:14] | where we are from a legal standpoint. | 在法律角度上 我们目前的情况 |
| [13:17] | The president has issued a memorandum of notification | 总统下发了备忘通知 |
| [13:21] | giving CIA the power to capture and detain suspected terrorists | 授权中情局在战场上逮捕及拘留 |
| [13:26] | on the battlefield. | 嫌疑恐怖分子 |
| [13:27] | Detain them where? | 把他们拘留在哪 |
| [13:29] | Are we bringing them to the U.S.? | 我们要把他们带回美国吗 |
| [13:32] | We’re really not in the prison business | 反恐中心可不搞 |
| [13:34] | – over in Counterterrorism. – Look, | -监狱那一套 -听我说 |
| [13:36] | the budget for Counterterrorism last week was what? | 反恐中心上周的预算是多少 |
| [13:39] | $600 million? | 六个亿 |
| [13:41] | The budget this week is whatever you need it to be. | 这周的预算不设上限 |
| [13:45] | And we are in whatever business it takes to get the job done. | 只要能完成任务 我们不择手段 |
| [13:49] | Initially, CIA legal | 起初 中情局的法务 |
| [13:51] | stated that any facility used to hold detainees | 声明任何用于关押的设施 |
| [13:54] | had to meet the requirements of the U.S. Bureau of Prisons, | 都需达到美国监狱局的要求 |
| [13:56] | but then Deputy Director Pavitt | 但后来 副局长帕维特认为 |
| [13:58] | thought that was gonna be too limiting. | 那样局限太大 |
| [13:59] | So, who came up with the black sites? | 那么 是谁想出了黑狱的主意 |
| [14:01] | Not totally clear. My guess | 还不太清楚 我的猜想是 |
| [14:03] | is either a senior officer at Counterterr… CTC, | 要么是反恐中心的高级职员 |
| [14:06] | or Alec Station bin Laden unit | 要么是亚历克站的本·拉登小组 |
| [14:08] | decided black sites were the best option. | 认定黑狱是最好的选择 |
| [14:09] | Well, did the CIA tell the State Department | 中情局有没有告知国务院 |
| [14:12] | they were making deals to hold people on foreign soil? | 他们在跟人协商要在境外拘留人员 |
| [14:16] | Where was Secretary of State Powell in all this? | 国务卿鲍威尔在此事中扮演了什么角色 |
| [14:19] | Well, I found a memo. | 我找到了一份备忘录 |
| [14:21] | The CIA’s general counsel… | 中情局的法律总顾问 |
| [14:24] | said the decision was made | 声称决定是 |
| [14:26] | not to tell Powell about the program, | 不将该项目告知鲍威尔 |
| [14:29] | because… | 因为 |
| [14:31] | “He would blow his stack | “如果他知道了情况 |
| [14:33] | if he were to be briefed on what was going on.” | 一定会大发雷霆” |
| [14:37] | Well, who decided that? | 谁的决定 |
| [14:39] | Someone inside the White House. | 某个白宫内部的人 |
| [14:43] | What about interrogations? | 那审讯呢 |
| [14:46] | President Bush’s memoranda | 布什总统的备忘录 |
| [14:47] | just authorized capturing and detaining. | 只授权了逮捕和拘留 |
| [14:50] | It didn’t say anything about interrogations. | 丝毫没有提到审讯的事 |
| [14:51] | And who gave them permission to play that role? | 那么是谁给他们许可去做那些事的 |
| [14:55] | Nobody. It looks like it started with legal at CTC. | 没人 看起来是从反恐中心的法务开始的 |
| [15:01] | Do you want me to brief Senator McCain on this? | 要我把这事汇报给麦凯恩参议员吗 |
| [15:03] | I know he’s interested. | 我知道他感兴趣 |
| [15:04] | The Republicans just pulled out of the study, Dan. | 共和党退出了这次调查 丹 |
| [15:13] | Good morning. | 早上好 |
| [15:14] | Where is everybody? | 大伙人呢 |
| [15:19] | Attorney General Holder opened a criminal investigation | 司法部长霍尔德启动了对中情局的 |
| [15:21] | into the CIA. | 犯罪调查 |
| [15:22] | As a result, the Agency won’t allow any of their people | 因此 中情局不允许他们的任何人 |
| [15:25] | to be interviewed for our report. | 接受我们的访谈 |
| [15:27] | The Republicans don’t see how we can move forward, | 共和党不认为调查还能继续 |
| [15:29] | so they’re out. | 所以他们退出了 |
| [15:32] | So, does this mean we stop? | 那调查要中止吗 |
| [15:33] | I mean, the committee voted to investigate. | 毕竟 委员会投过票赞成调查的 |
| [15:35] | The senator says we keep going. | 参议员让我们继续 |
| [15:36] | But we can’t actually talk to anyone | 但我们无法询问任何 |
| [15:38] | – who was involved in the program. – Right. | -参与过这一项目的人 -对 |
| [15:39] | According to CIA legal, CIA personnel is only speaking to DOJ. | 据中情局法务所说 中情局的人只对司法部的人开口 |
| [15:43] | And is DOJ gonna share their findings? | 那司法部会分享他们的发现吗 |
| [15:45] | I mean, can we work with them? | 我是说 我们能跟他们合作吗 |
| [15:46] | I’ve reached out to the special prosecutor. | 我已经联系了特别检察官 |
| [15:48] | I’m waiting to hear back. | 正在等他的回复 |
| [15:49] | Okay, but if nobody who actually worked on the program | 好 但如果参与过项目的人 |
| [15:51] | is going to talk to us, how do we investigate? | 都不肯跟我们谈 我们要怎么调查 |
| [15:53] | So, we have the files, | 我们有文件 |
| [15:55] | their e-mails and cables, their memos. | 他们的电子邮件和电报 备忘录 |
| [15:57] | We have to use their own communications to tell the story. | 我们要用他们自己的沟通记录将事情展现出来 |
| [16:00] | Do you have any idea how hard that’s gonna be? | 你知道这会有多难吗 |
| [16:02] | The tapes investigation took two years, Dan, | 录像带的调查可花了两年 丹 |
| [16:05] | and this is about a lot more than what was on the tapes. | 而这可远比录像带上的内容要复杂得多 |
| [16:08] | We don’t even know what this is. | 我们都不知道这到底算什么 |
| [16:11] | Right, but we do know who it starts with. | 对 但我们知道这事的始作俑者 |
| [16:14] | We go one detainee at a time. | 我们一次找一位受押人员 |
| [16:35] | 出发日期 2004年8月23日 周一 返程日期 2004年8月28日 周六 | |
| [16:39] | 绿色拘留点 2002年3月 | |
| [16:48] | You speak English? | 你会说英语吗 |
| [16:51] | My name is Ali Soufan. I’m with the FBI. | 我叫阿里·苏凡 我是联调局的 |
| [16:54] | You’re under arrest. | 你被捕了 |
| [16:55] | – You understand? – No. Where are you taking me? | -明白吗 -不 你们要带我去哪 |
| [17:05] | Your wound is infected. | 你的伤口感染了 |
| [17:07] | But we’re going to take good care of you. | 但我们会照顾好你的 |
| [17:14] | I want to show you something. | 我要给你看样东西 |
| [17:23] | He’s talking to someone off-screen. | 他在跟镜头外的什么人说话 |
| [17:27] | He’s calling him Mukhtar. | 他叫他穆赫塔尔 |
| [17:30] | You know who that is? | 你知道是谁吗 |
| [17:43] | Mukhtar. | 穆赫塔尔 |
| [17:52] | A man who lost his mind? | 一个疯子 |
| [18:02] | No, not him. | 不 不是他 |
| [18:11] | Khalid Sheikh Mohammed? | 哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德 |
| [18:41] | Abu Zubaydah confirmed that KSM is the leader | 阿布·祖贝达确认了哈立德就是 |
| [18:43] | of all Al Qaeda operations outside of Afghanistan. | 基地组织在阿富汗境外所有行动的头领 |
| [18:46] | He trained the hijackers. | 他训练了那些劫机者 |
| [18:48] | We’re calling him the mastermind. | 我们认为他就是主谋 |
| [18:49] | Outstanding. | 了不起 |
| [18:51] | Hats off to the bin Laden group. | 向本·拉登小组致敬 |
| [18:54] | Whichever one of your people did this, | 不管是你们哪个手下查出了这些 |
| [18:55] | I want to call them and congratulate them in person. | 我都想亲自打电话祝贺 |
| [18:57] | Who was it? | 是谁 |
| [18:59] | Wasn’t our guy. | 不是我们的人 |
| [19:01] | What? Who got it? | 什么 那是谁 |
| [19:03] | FBI is working Zubaydah. | 联调局在审讯祖贝达 |
| [19:06] | An FBI guy got this? | 是联调局的人查到的 |
| [19:08] | Yes, Ali Soufan. | 是的 阿里·苏凡 |
| [19:09] | They used him in the Cole investigation. | 他们在科尔调查中用过他 |
| [19:11] | He’s part of their counterterrorism group. He speaks Arabic. | 他是他们反恐组的人 他会说阿拉伯语 |
| [19:13] | I don’t care who speaks Arabic. | 我不在乎谁会说阿拉伯语 |
| [19:16] | This is not just a criminal investigation. | 这可不只是犯罪调查 |
| [19:19] | We are gathering intelligence here. | 我们这里是收集情报的 |
| [19:21] | That is what we do. | 这是我们的职责 |
| [19:22] | The FBI is looking at the past. | 联调局着眼于过去 |
| [19:24] | We need to stop attacks in the future. | 而我们要阻止未来的恐怖袭击 |
| [19:27] | I want CIA in the room with this guy, okay? | 我要中情局的人跟那家伙在一起 明白吗 |
| [19:29] | I want CIA in the room with Zubaydah. | 我要中情局的人跟祖贝达在一起 |
| [19:32] | So, who do we have who can work on him? | 我们有谁能让他开口 |
| [19:33] | CIA runs sources, people who cooperate. | 中情局运作线人 他们都是会配合的人 |
| [19:36] | That’s not these guys. | 这些人可不一样 |
| [19:37] | Every second we are not draining the detainee’s brain, | 我们没榨干受押人大脑的每一秒 |
| [19:39] | we are rolling the dice. | 都是赌运气 |
| [19:40] | We need our people in the room. | 我们得派自己的人去那里 |
| [19:42] | We need to be the ones asking the questions now. | 我们现在得做提问的人 |
| [19:46] | I heard from someone over in Technical Services, | 我听一个技术服务部的人说过 |
| [19:48] | a woman named Miriam, | 一个叫米里亚姆的女人 |
| [19:50] | about a couple of Air Force psychologists | 关于几个空军心理学家 |
| [19:53] | who came in and pitched a whole new approach to interrogations. | 他们加入后给审讯带来了全新的方法 |
| [19:56] | Jim Mitchell and Bruce Jessen. | 吉姆·米切尔和布鲁斯·杰森 |
| [19:59] | Miriam says Mitchell has the special sauce. | 米里亚姆说米切尔有秘诀 |
| [20:03] | Zubaydah didn’t tell us everything, | 祖贝达没完全交待 |
| [20:06] | because we stopped short of where we needed to go. | 因为我们在中途戛然而止了 |
| [20:10] | SERE stands for Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape. | SERE代表生存 躲避 反抗和逃跑 |
| [20:16] | It’s a program to help prepare U.S. Special Forces | 这是一个帮助美国特种部队的项目 |
| [20:20] | for whatever they might encounter if captured. | 帮助他们应对一旦被捕可能遭遇的一切 |
| [20:22] | Now, I have over 14,000 hours | 我观察SERE技术 |
| [20:26] | observing SERE interrogation techniques. | 超过一万四千小时 |
| [20:29] | Bruce here has more than that… | 布鲁斯观察的时间更久 |
| [20:30] | Observing, as opposed to…? | 观察 而不是… |
| [20:33] | I took a course in conducting interrogations as well. | 我也上过指导如何审讯的课程 |
| [20:36] | I worked with volunteers in actual simulations. | 我曾和志愿者进行过模拟审讯 |
| [20:39] | We feel we can reverse engineer | 我们认为可以对SERE技术 |
| [20:42] | these SERE techniques to induce learned helplessness. | 进行反向工程 从而产生习得性无助 |
| [20:46] | 3D方法 虚弱 依赖 恐惧 | |
| [20:46] | Can you explain what that means, | 你能解释一下 |
| [20:48] | “reverse engineer”? | “反向工程”指什么吗 |
| [20:49] | Instead of using these techniques to protect our people, | 我们不用这些技术保护我们的人 |
| [20:54] | we use them to achieve compliance in the detainees. | 而是用它使受押人服从 |
| [20:58] | Our plan involves, uh, using individual assessments | 我们的项目包括对受押人 |
| [21:01] | of detainees to create a program designed to induce | 进行个体评估 搭建一项催生 |
| [21:06] | debility, dependency and dread. | 虚弱 依赖和恐惧的项目 |
| [21:10] | – We call these the three “D”s. – Three “D”s. | -我们称之为3D -3D |
| [21:13] | And there’s science to back this up? | 这种方法有科学依据 |
| [21:15] | Oh, yes. Yes, sir. | 是的 是的 先生 |
| [21:16] | Excuse me, Dr. Mitchell. | 打断一下 米切尔博士 |
| [21:18] | Can you elaborate on, uh, the techniques you’ll be employing? | 你能详细解释一下你想用的具体手法吗 |
| [21:21] | Absolutely. | 当然可以 |
| [21:24] | 立正抓领 双手抓住受押人的领口 将其拉近 | |
| [21:25] | The, uh, the attention grasp. | 立正抓领 |
| [21:28] | 撞墙 以”项圈” 如卷起的头巾 毛巾等 圈住受押人的脖子作为辅助 向前拉项圈同时迅速结实地将对象双肩 撞到柔性墙上 制造巨大声响 使对象产生被重击的幻觉以恐吓对象 但不制造伤害 | |
| [21:30] | Walling. | 撞墙 |
| [21:32] | 控头技术 把手掌放在受押人脸颊两边 不让头移动 避免手指碰到受押人双眼 | |
| [21:32] | Facial hold. | 控头技术 |
| [21:33] | 掌掴或冒犯性扇击 掌掴受押人的脸 打击嘴唇至耳朵旁边侧颊部位 以惊吓 羞辱对方 | |
| [21:34] | The facial slap or insult slap. | 掌掴或者说冒犯性扇击 |
| [21:38] | 盒子禁闭 将受押人关在狭小空间两小时 或能站立的较大空间十八小时 可以在空间中置入无害昆虫 | |
| [21:38] | Cramped confinement. | 盒子禁闭 |
| [21:41] | Wall standing. | 面墙站立 |
| [21:43] | 面墙站立 受押人距墙约1.2米双臂撑墙 只用手指支撑在墙上承担全身重量 不许移动或调整姿势 | |
| [21:44] | 压力姿势 受押人坐在地上双腿前伸举手过头 或跪坐于地后仰四十五度 以肌肉过度疲劳与体力耗尽制造不适感 | |
| [21:44] | Stress positions. | 压力姿势 |
| [21:47] | 剥夺睡眠 迫使受押人清醒超过一百八十小时 同时保持站立或压力姿势 受押人双手可以拷在头上 可能导致出现极端幻觉 | |
| [21:47] | Sleep deprivation. | 剥夺睡眠 |
| [21:49] | 水刑 将受押人绑在木板或长凳上 以布料盖住口鼻 往受押人脸上倒水以制造溺水感 可能会导致惊厥或呕吐 呛水 以及胸膛和四肢不自觉抽搐 | |
| [21:49] | Waterboarding. | 水刑 |
| [21:51] | 使用昆虫 威胁受押人将其与毒虫关在一个狭小密闭空间 但放入无害昆虫 | |
| [21:51] | Use of insects. | 使用昆虫 |
| [21:53] | 模拟下葬 将受押人关在与棺材类似的狭窄盒子里 盒子留有气孔以防窒息 | |
| [21:54] | And mock burials. | 以及模拟下葬 |
| [21:59] | Well, from my perspective, | 我个人认为 |
| [22:01] | this seems like it could be a potential game changer, | 这似乎可以改变目前的局面 |
| [22:03] | but, of course… | 但当然 |
| [22:05] | it’s up to Director Rodriguez. | 这由罗德里格斯主任决定 |
| [22:07] | I think if we’re serious about stopping the next threat, | 如果我们真的要阻止下一次袭击 |
| [22:10] | we need to put on our big boy pants | 我们就得成熟点 |
| [22:12] | and provide the authorities these guys need. | 给当局他们所需要的 |
| [22:14] | These approaches might… | 这些方法可能会 |
| [22:16] | raise some eyebrows at Defense. | 导致国防部的一些人的非议 |
| [22:18] | Well, we’re not at Defense. We’re at the CIA. | 我们又不是国防部 我们是中情局 |
| [22:21] | Besides, you just said, | 另外 你刚说过 |
| [22:22] | we use this SERE stuff on our guys all the time. | 我们一直都在自己人身上用这套SERE的东西 |
| [22:25] | I don’t see a problem. | 我认为没问题 |
| [22:27] | Shortly after the CIA’s decision | 中情局决定聘用米切尔博士不久后 |
| [22:28] | to engage Dr. Mitchell, Abu Zubaydah was moved | 阿布·祖贝达被转移到一间 |
| [22:31] | to a cell that was lit 24 hours a day. | 二十四小时不熄灯的牢房 |
| [22:33] | Loud noise was fed into his cell to disrupt his sleep. | 牢房里播放干扰他睡眠的高分贝噪声 |
| [22:37] | What about the guy who got him talking? | 那之前让他招供的人呢 |
| [22:38] | Ali Soufan? | 阿里·苏凡吗 |
| [22:40] | Wait, he’s FBI, not CIA. | 等等 他是联调局的 不是中情局的 |
| [22:42] | So, we can ask him questions, right? | 所以我们可以问他 对吗 |
| [22:44] | No rule against that. | 这不违反规定 |
| [22:47] | We can try. | 我们可以试试 |
| [22:59] | There’s only one interrogation technique | 有效的审讯技术只有一种 |
| [23:02] | that works: rapport building. | 建立友好关系 |
| [23:04] | You get close to these guys, and they open up. | 你与他们亲近 他们就会敞开心门 |
| [23:07] | But the CIA didn’t believe that. | 但中情局不信这套 |
| [23:09] | Just look at Abu Zubaydah. | 看看阿布·祖贝达 |
| [23:11] | Well, you got him to talk. How’d you do that? | 你让他开口了 你怎么做到的 |
| [23:13] | I walked in one day and played him a tape of himself. | 我去给他播放了一段他自己的录音 |
| [23:16] | Most of it was of a phone conversation. | 大部分都录的是他用手机通话 |
| [23:19] | We had tapped his phones. | 我们监听了他的手机 |
| [23:20] | But he forgot to hang up at the end of the call, | 但他打完电话忘记挂了 |
| [23:23] | so we had all this background noise of his house. | 所以我们录到了一些他房子里的背景音 |
| [23:26] | Then my partner walked in | 然后我搭档带着 |
| [23:27] | with a big box full of cassette tapes. | 一整箱录音带进来了 |
| [23:30] | We told him we had bugged his safe house; | 我们告诉他说我们监听了他的安全屋 |
| [23:32] | we had been listening for months; | 已经监听了数月 |
| [23:34] | we knew everything, so lying was pointless. | 我们什么都知道 所以撒谎没用的 |
| [23:37] | He looked at the box full of tapes and… | 他看着一整箱录音带… |
| [23:38] | And all-all the tapes were blank. | 所有的录音带都是空带 |
| [23:40] | Of course they were. | 当然 |
| [23:41] | But he didn’t know that. | 但他不知道 |
| [23:43] | So, he talked. | 所以他开口了 |
| [23:46] | What happened when the contractors showed up? | 那承包商出现之后呢 |
| [23:49] | Who the fuck is this? | 他是谁 |
| [23:51] | Dr. Mitchell is an Air Force psychologist, | 米切尔博士是空军的心理学家 |
| [23:53] | and he’s developed a new method of interrogation. | 他研究出了一套新的审讯方法 |
| [23:55] | Why-why do we need a new method? | 我们要新审讯方法干什么 |
| [23:57] | He’s not telling you everything. | 他没完全交待 |
| [23:59] | We think he knows more. | 我们认为他知道的更多 |
| [24:01] | We put him at number three | 我们认为他是基地组织的 |
| [24:02] | or number four in Al Qaeda leadership. | 三号或四号头目 |
| [24:04] | He probably knows the next move. | 他可能知道下一次袭击的情报 |
| [24:05] | Do you speak Arabic, Jim? Does Gary here? | 你会说阿拉伯语吗 吉姆 盖瑞会吗 |
| [24:08] | Don’t need to. | 我不需要会 |
| [24:11] | Can I ask you something? | 我能问你件事吗 |
| [24:12] | Have you ever interrogated any sort of extremist before? | 你审讯过哪怕一个极端分子吗 |
| [24:17] | – Know much about Al Qaeda? – No. | -了解基地组织吗 -不 |
| [24:19] | Have you ever interrogated any sort of terrorist before? | 你审讯过恐怖分子吗 |
| [24:23] | – No. – Any sort of criminal? | -没有 -罪犯呢 |
| [24:26] | No. | 没有 |
| [24:27] | Have you ever interrogated anyone before? | 你审讯过任何人吗 |
| [24:30] | It’s not important. | 这不重要 |
| [24:32] | He’s a human; I’m a psychologist. | 他是个人 我是心理学家 |
| [24:36] | He knows a secret, | 他知道一个秘密 |
| [24:37] | and I’m gonna get him to tell that secret to Gary. | 我会让他把这秘密告诉盖瑞 |
| [24:43] | What-what are you going to do to him that isn’t… | 你要对他做的事不是… |
| [24:44] | What am I gonna do? | 我要做什么 |
| [24:47] | What is Jim gonna do? | 吉姆要做什么 |
| [24:48] | Jim’s gonna do what works. | 吉姆要做管用的事情 |
| [24:54] | Let’s go, shitbird! | 我们走 废物 |
| [25:00] | Move it, asshole! | 过来 混蛋 |
| [25:03] | Help! Please! | 救命 救命 |
| [25:21] | You can’t just shave a Muslim man. | 你不能随便给穆斯林男人剃须 |
| [25:23] | Do you know what that means? | 你知道那意味着什么吗 |
| [25:24] | He’s going to shut down. | 他会封闭自我的 |
| [25:26] | Got to humiliate him, right off the bat. | 必须一上来就羞辱他 |
| [25:29] | Same reason we took away his clothes. | 脱光他的衣服也是一个目的 |
| [25:31] | Why the loud music? | 为什么要放这么响的音乐 |
| [25:32] | Sleep deprivation. | 剥夺睡眠 |
| [25:34] | We stop the music when he starts talking. | 他开口我们就关掉音乐 |
| [25:37] | Then he can sleep. | 到时候他就可以睡觉了 |
| [25:39] | Tired people tell the truth? | 人疲劳了就会说实话吗 |
| [25:40] | Learned helplessness. | 习得性无助 |
| [25:43] | You’re familiar with Dr. Martin Seligman? | 你熟悉马丁·塞利格曼博士吗 |
| [25:46] | Seligman did an experiment with dogs. | 塞利格曼用狗做了个实验 |
| [25:48] | He put them in a cage | 他把狗关进笼子 |
| [25:50] | with a barrier running down the middle. | 笼子中间有个障碍 |
| [25:53] | And one side of the cage was electrified and the other wasn’t. | 笼子一边通电 另一边不通电 |
| [25:56] | At first, when he shocked the dogs, | 起初 他电击狗以后 |
| [25:58] | they’d jump over the barrier to get away. | 狗会跳到障碍另一边 |
| [26:00] | And then he electrified both sides. | 然后他就在两边都通电 |
| [26:04] | There was no escape. | 无路可逃 |
| [26:07] | No belief they could change anything. | 狗不再相信自己能改变什么 |
| [26:10] | He’d open the door to the cage, | 他再打开笼门 |
| [26:12] | they wouldn’t even leave. | 狗甚至都不出去了 |
| [26:14] | It’s learned helplessness. | 这就是习得性无助 |
| [26:15] | That’s what we’re gonna instill in this man. | 我们就准备把这个注入这人 |
| [26:17] | You’ll see. | 你会看到的 |
| [26:25] | A coffin? You’re gonna kill him? | 棺材 你要杀了他吗 |
| [26:27] | Let’s call it a confinement box. | 叫它禁闭盒吧 |
| [26:30] | I got this one, and I got a smaller one. | 我做了这个 还有个小一点的 |
| [26:33] | And you’re gonna put him in there? | 你要把他关进去吗 |
| [26:35] | With these, which, based on my evaluation, he hates. | 加上这个 根据我的评估 他讨厌这个 |
| [26:41] | Are you out of your mind? | 你疯了 |
| [26:43] | We don’t do this. | 我们不做这种事情 |
| [26:45] | You know this is against the law. | 你知道这是犯法的 |
| [26:46] | The most senior people have signed off on it. | 最上面的人签字同意了 |
| [26:50] | We’re putting him on trial. | 我们是要送他上法庭的 |
| [26:51] | How are we gonna build a case against him? | 这要怎么起诉他 |
| [26:54] | Who says he’s getting a trial? | 谁说他要上法庭 |
| [26:58] | I wanted to arrest him right there on the spot. | 我当场就像逮捕他 |
| [27:01] | – I told the Bureau that. – What’d they say? | -我跟局里说了这个 -他们怎么说 |
| [27:04] | They briefed Director Mueller, | 他们通报了穆勒局长 |
| [27:06] | and told me to get the hell out of there, so I did. | 然后让我离开那里 所以我就离开了 |
| [27:09] | – When was that? – Late May, mid-May or… | -那是什么时候 -五月底 五月中或是 |
| [27:12] | ‘Cause I’m finding records that say that | 因为我找到了记录 |
| [27:14] | Mitchell left a little while later, early June, | 显示米切尔六月初就离开了 |
| [27:16] | for R&R and some meetings at headquarters. | 休闲娱乐 去总部开会 |
| [27:20] | But we had one high-value detainee in custody, | 但我们有一个高价值受押人 |
| [27:23] | Abu Zubaydah. | 阿布·祖贝达 |
| [27:24] | And after Mitchell left, the CIA put him in isolation, | 米切尔离开后 中情局把他单独关起来 |
| [27:27] | and didn’t ask him a single question for 47 days. | 四十七天都没问他一个问题 |
| [27:31] | Are you fucking kidding me? | 你跟我开玩笑吗 |
| [27:34] | The whole country was on red alert that summer. | 那个夏天 整个国家都处于红色警戒 |
| [27:35] | If they were so concerned about the next attack, | 他们要是真那么担心下一次袭击 |
| [27:38] | why’d they stop asking questions? | 他们为什么不审讯他了 |
| [27:39] | Right, it doesn’t make any sense. | 对 这说不通 |
| [27:41] | Once the psychologist showed up, | 心理学家出现后 |
| [27:42] | almost nothing did anymore. | 基本上一切都停摆了 |
| [27:51] | The CIA said Zubaydah was involved | 中情局说祖贝达参与了 |
| [27:53] | in every major terrorist operation | 基地组织发动的 |
| [27:55] | carried out by Al Qaeda. | 所有重大恐怖袭击 |
| [27:57] | They told the president | 他们告诉总统 |
| [27:58] | he was number three or four in the organization. | 他是基地组织的三号或四号人物 |
| [28:00] | Yes, that was my understanding as well. | 是的 我也是这么以为的 |
| [28:02] | And the claim that Zubaydah was a major player | 祖贝达是主犯这一判断 |
| [28:05] | was the main justification they gave to the Justice Department | 是他们告知司法部需要采取更强硬措施的 |
| [28:07] | for needing to go harder. | 主要理由 |
| [28:08] | They were certain he knew about the next attack. | 他们当时很确定他知道下一次袭击的情报 |
| [28:11] | But last night I found this. | 但昨晚我发现了这个 |
| [28:14] | Turns out Zubaydah wasn’t three or four in the organization. | 证明祖贝达不是基地组织的三号或四号人物 |
| [28:16] | He wasn’t part of Al Qaeda leadership at all. | 他都不在基地组织的领导层 |
| [28:19] | They only had one source calling him that, | 他们只有一个线人这么指认他 |
| [28:21] | and that source later admitted he was lying. | 那线人后来也承认自己撒谎 |
| [28:23] | So, they exaggerated who he was | 所以他们夸大了他的身份 |
| [28:26] | to the president and the Department of Justice | 好让总统和司法部 |
| [28:28] | in order to get legal approvals for these new techniques? | 在法律上批准这些新技术 |
| [28:32] | Is that what you’re saying? | 你是这个意思吗 |
| [28:33] | I think that’s a possibility. | 我认为有这个可能 |
| [28:36] | The program really starts with him. | 这个项目自他而始 |
| [28:39] | 绿色拘留点 2002年8月4日 | |
| [28:43] | Have you guys used this thing before? | 你们以前用过这个吗 |
| [28:45] | The waterboard? | 水刑吗 |
| [28:47] | No, it’s a Navy thing. | 没有 这是海军的做法 |
| [28:49] | But we watched a video. | 但我们看了个录像 |
| [28:51] | We tested it on each other, | 我们在彼此身上做了测试 |
| [28:52] | just to get a feel for the experience. | 为了体验一下具体感觉 |
| [28:55] | Is it safe? | 安全吗 |
| [28:58] | Yes. | 安全 |
| [29:12] | Who are the operatives inside the U.S.? | 你在美国国内的同伙是谁 |
| [29:14] | I don’t know! | 我不知道 |
| [29:20] | When is the next attack? | 下一次袭击是什么时候 |
| [29:21] | I don’t know. | 我不知道 |
| [29:31] | One, two, three, four, five, | 一 二 三 四 五 |
| [29:35] | six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, | 六 七 八 九 十 十一 |
| [29:40] | 12, 13, 14, | 十二 十三 十四 |
| [29:43] | 15, 16, 17, 18, | 十五 十六 十七 十八 |
| [29:46] | 19, 20, 21, 22, | 十九 二十 二十一 二十二 |
| [29:50] | 23, 24, 25, 26. | 二十三 二十四 二十五 二十六 |
| [30:02] | When is the next attack? | 下一次袭击是什么时候 |
| [30:04] | Who are the operatives inside the U.S.? | 你在美国国内的同伙是谁 |
| [30:12] | Anything in that bag contain | 包里有任何物品包含 |
| [30:13] | the real names of CIA officers, assets or partners, | 中情局职员 线人或合作伙伴的真名 |
| [30:16] | or any information that would violate the agreement between | 或任何会违反中央情报局 |
| [30:18] | the Central Intelligence Agency and the United States Senate? | 与美国参议院之间协议的信息吗 |
| [30:21] | – All good. – All right, good night. | -没有 -好的 晚安 |
| [30:23] | – Have a good night, Jay. – Get home safe. | -晚安 杰伊 -平安到家 |
| [30:25] | Good night. | 晚安 |
| [30:43] | Dan Jones? | 丹·琼斯吗 |
| [30:48] | Do I know you? | 我认识你吗 |
| [30:49] | No, but I think I can help you. | 不 但我应该能帮到你 |
| [30:52] | – Help-help me with what? – The EIT program. | -帮我什么 -强化审讯技术项目 |
| [30:55] | That’s what you’re looking into, isn’t it? | 你在调查这个吧 |
| [30:59] | I need to know I won’t be named, anywhere. | 你得保证不在任何地方提及我的名字 |
| [31:03] | I’m still with the Agency. | 我还在局里 |
| [31:05] | My even being here with you, talking, is… | 光是来这里跟你说话 都是… |
| [31:12] | What was your involvement? | 你参与了什么 |
| [31:14] | Office of Medical Services, black sites. | 医疗服务部门 黑狱 |
| [31:18] | – So, you’re a doctor? – Physician’s assistant. | -你是医生吗 -医生助手 |
| [31:21] | The American Medical Association | 美国医学协会 |
| [31:22] | won’t allow doctors to be involved. | 不会允许医生参与 |
| [31:24] | They take an oath: do no harm. | 他们立誓 不伤害 |
| [31:26] | We’re the next best thing. | 我们是除医生外最合适的 |
| [31:28] | I was there when the contractors arrived. | 承包商到时我在那里 |
| [31:33] | They made tapes of the Abu Zubaydah interrogations, | 他们录了阿布·祖贝达的审讯过程 |
| [31:35] | but there’s a 21-hour period | 但是其中21小时的 |
| [31:37] | where the transcripts are missing… nothing. | 记录不见了 什么也没有 |
| [31:39] | They were using the waterboard. | 他们当时在用水刑 |
| [31:41] | Zubaydah lost consciousness. | 祖贝达失去了意识 |
| [31:43] | He was choking to death, drowning. | 他差点窒息而死 溺水 |
| [31:45] | Not just thinking he was drowning, | 不只是觉得自己溺水 |
| [31:47] | he was actually fucking drowning. | 他是真的溺水了 |
| [31:50] | I was told that the waterboard | 他们跟我说水刑 |
| [31:52] | was only gonna be used as a last resort. | 是别无他法时才会用 |
| [31:54] | The contractors did an assessment of the prisoner, | 承包商对囚犯做了评估 |
| [31:57] | – and they made a call… – What kind of assessment? | -他们决定… -什么评估 |
| [31:59] | They bounced him off the walls a few times | 他们把他往墙上撞了几次 |
| [32:01] | and then strapped him down and poured water down his throat. | 然后把他捆着 往他喉咙里灌水 |
| [32:04] | We understand this is a different approach, | 我们知道这是一种不同的审讯手段 |
| [32:05] | – but it’s based on science. – Science? | -但它有科学依据 -科学 |
| [32:08] | Come on. What science? | 得了吧 什么科学 |
| [32:10] | – Have you seen their science? – They believe the waterboard | -你见过他们的科学吗 -他们认为水刑 |
| [32:12] | is working here to create compliance. | 起到了让囚犯服从的作用 |
| [32:13] | Well, of course they do. | 他们当然这么想 |
| [32:15] | They’re the ones who get to decide when it’s used. | 什么时候用是他们说了算 |
| [32:17] | And they’re also the ones who get to decide if it’s working. | 有没有效果也是他们说了算 |
| [32:19] | How is that even ethical? | 这根本就不符合道德 |
| [32:21] | The people we’re dealing with weaponized daily life. | 我们面对的这些人使日常生活武器化 |
| [32:23] | Would you like to talk about the ethics of that? | 你想谈谈那事的道德吗 |
| [32:27] | We’re here to make sure that nothing like that ever happens again. | 我们是来确保那样的事不会再发生 |
| [32:31] | They’re training their people to resist traditional interrogations | 他们在某个山洞里训练自己的人 |
| [32:33] | in the back of a cave somewhere. | 抵抗传统审讯 |
| [32:35] | So we need to change our approach | 所以我们需要改变方法 |
| [32:37] | before another bomb goes off or another building falls down. | 免得又一炸弹爆炸 又一幢楼坍塌 |
| [32:41] | Okay, okay. | 好吧 好吧 |
| [32:43] | What is gonna happen when one of our soldiers gets captured | 如果我们一个士兵被捕 |
| [32:47] | and takes out a card with the Geneva Convention on it | 拿出一张写着日内瓦公约的卡片 |
| [32:49] | and wants to be treated like a human being? | 想被当人一样对待 会发生什么 |
| [32:52] | You think his captors aren’t gonna remember | 你以为抓他的人会不记得 |
| [32:55] | the way these people were treated here? | 这些人在这里受到了什么对待吗 |
| [32:57] | – And for what? – Do you have a kid at home? | -这都为了什么 -你家里有孩子吗 |
| [33:03] | We’re not gonna get beat again. | 我们不能再被打倒了 |
| [33:06] | Besides the chief of station, | 除了站长 |
| [33:07] | did you report your concerns up the chain of command? | 你向上级汇报你的疑虑了吗 |
| [33:09] | We got a cable from Director Rodriguez | 罗德里格斯主任给我们发了电报 |
| [33:12] | telling us to stop putting our objections in writing. | 告诉我们不要把审讯对象记录在案 |
| [33:15] | No paper trail. | 不要有书面记录 |
| [33:18] | I told them if they were gonna keep using the new techniques, | 我告诉他们如果继续用新技术 |
| [33:20] | I wanted out. | 我想退出 |
| [33:23] | I wasn’t the only one. Guys were choking up. | 我不是唯一一个 大家都承受不住了 |
| [33:27] | It’s all in the e-mails. | 都在电邮里 |
| [33:35] | As early as November 2001, | 早在2001年11月 |
| [33:37] | the CIA’s legal team circulated a memorandum | 中情局的法务团队传阅了一份报告 |
| [33:40] | describing a novel legal defense | 描述了一种新的合法辩护 |
| [33:42] | for their officers who might engage in torture. | 为他们可能涉及使用酷刑的人员脱罪 |
| [33:44] | Come on. They actually called it torture? | 不是吧 他们真的称之为酷刑吗 |
| [33:47] | The CIA? | 中情局 |
| [33:48] | They just forgot we have laws against that? | 他们忘了我们有法律禁止酷刑吗 |
| [33:50] | Yes, sir. Mitchell and Jessen renamed it | 是的 长官 米切尔和杰森改其名为 |
| [33:52] | “enhanced interrogation” to help sell it, | “强化审讯”以帮助推广 |
| [33:54] | but the Agency was talking about doing it | 但中情局一个受押人都还没有的时候 |
| [33:56] | before they even had a single detainee. | 就在讨论那么做了 |
| [33:59] | My question, Senator, is: | 参议员 我的问题是 |
| [34:01] | How did the CIA know they needed to torture prisoners | 中情局是怎么在还没囚犯时 |
| [34:03] | before they even had one? | 就知道他们需要对囚犯施以酷刑 |
| [34:06] | That didn’t come from Cheney and Addington? | 这不是切尼和艾丁顿的主意吗 |
| [34:08] | Seems like it happened the other way around. | 情况似乎恰恰相反 |
| [34:09] | The CIA took it to the Bush White House | 中情局把这个项目带给布什政府 |
| [34:12] | and John Yoo at the Office of Legal Counsel. | 及法律顾问办公室的约翰·尤 |
| [34:15] | So, here’s where we’re at. | 现在情况是这样的 |
| [34:16] | The crime of torture, as described in Section 2340, | 正如2340章所描述 酷刑罪 |
| [34:16] | 法律顾问办公室 2002年7月 | |
| [34:20] | requires that the defendant… in this case, an interrogator… | 需要被告 即本案中的审讯者 |
| [34:23] | intends to cause severe pain or suffering. | 故意造成严重疼痛或痛苦 |
| [34:27] | But in this case, that’s not the interrogator’s intent. | 但本案中 那不是审讯者的意图 |
| [34:30] | Right. The intent is to gain intel, save American lives. | 没错 意图是获取情报 拯救美国人的生命 |
| [34:33] | But, John, what if the techniques the interrogator employs | 可是约翰 万一审讯者采用的手段 |
| [34:36] | do nonetheless cause pain and suffering? | 还是会造成疼痛或痛苦呢 |
| [34:39] | How do we deal with that? | 这怎么处理 |
| [34:40] | Well, the key phrase is “severe pain or suffering.” | 关键在于”严重疼痛或痛苦” |
| [34:44] | But 2340 never actually defines the term “severe.” | 但其实2340章从未定义”严重”一词 |
| [34:46] | We found this definition in a Medicare statute. | 我们在医保条例中找到了这个定义 |
| [34:50] | Severe pain or suffering: | 严重疼痛或痛苦指的是 |
| [34:52] | “acute symptoms that place the individual in serious jeopardy | “让人有严重危险且难以忍受的 |
| [34:55] | and are hard to endure.” | 急性症状” |
| [34:57] | Meaning? | 意思是 |
| [34:57] | To constitute torture, | 要构成酷刑 |
| [35:00] | the damage done must rise to the level of organ failure, | 造成的伤害必须达到器官衰竭 |
| [35:05] | impairment of bodily function, or death. | 身体机能损伤或死亡的程度 |
| [35:08] | So, basically, if someone dies, we’re doing it wrong? | 所以基本上 如果有人死了 我们就做错了吗 |
| [35:11] | If the president deemed it necessary | 如果总统认为有必要 |
| [35:13] | to… crush the testicles of a child | 碾碎一个孩子的睾丸 |
| [35:16] | to stop a plane from crashing into a building, | 来阻止飞机撞向大楼 |
| [35:18] | to save American lives, | 以拯救美国人的生命 |
| [35:20] | there is no law or treaty that could stop him. | 没有法律或条约能阻止他 |
| [35:23] | I can make the same argument for | 我可以用同样的说法辩解 |
| [35:25] | gouging out a prisoner’s eyes or dousing him with acid. | 挖出囚犯的眼睛或用酸浇他 |
| [35:31] | In our opinion, | 在我们看来 |
| [35:32] | if it provides unique intelligence that saves lives, | 如果它提供能拯救生命的独特情报 |
| [35:36] | and doesn’t cause any lasting harm, | 且没有持续性伤害 |
| [35:39] | then it’s legal for the president to order it. | 那么总统下令就是合法的 |
| [35:41] | What do we mean when we say “unique”? | “独特”指的是什么 |
| [35:43] | Intelligence that couldn’t have been obtained any other way. | 无法通过其他方式获得的情报 |
| [35:50] | And you’ve discussed all of this with the White House, I assume? | 你应该和白宫讨论过这一切吧 |
| [35:53] | And? | 还有呢 |
| [35:55] | Did they tell Bush what they were gonna do to Zubaydah? | 他们告诉布什他们要怎么对待祖贝达了吗 |
| [35:57] | – No. – And National Security Advisor Rice… | -没有 -国家安全顾问赖斯 |
| [35:59] | where was she in all this? | 她又在其中做了什么 |
| [36:00] | National Security Advisor Rice was told about the program, | 国家安全顾问赖斯被告知了这个项目 |
| [36:03] | but she was also told the president would not be briefed. | 同时也被告知不要汇报总统 |
| [36:06] | Who tells the president’s national security advisor | 谁让总统的国家安全顾问 |
| [36:09] | not to brief the president? | 不要汇报总统 |
| [36:13] | Cheney and Addington. | 切尼和艾丁顿 |
| [36:15] | According to CIA records, Bush wasn’t told about the program | 根据中情局记录 布什直到2006年4月 |
| [36:18] | until April of 2006, four years later. | 即四年后 才被告知这个项目 |
| [36:27] | And the records we found state | 而且根据我们找到的记录 |
| [36:29] | that when the president was finally told about the program, | 总统终于获知项目时 |
| [36:32] | he expressed discomfort with the image of a detainee | 看到影像上一个受押人 |
| [36:36] | chained to the ceiling, wearing a diaper, | 被拴在天花板上 穿着尿片 |
| [36:37] | and forced to go to the bathroom on himself. | 被逼排泄在自己身上 他表达了不适 |
| [36:41] | How long till you can get this thing done, Dan? | 你还要多久才能完成报告 丹 |
| [36:45] | We’ve got to get this out. | 我们必须公之于众 |
| [36:51] | What about this guy, Gul Rahman? | 这个人呢 古尔·拉赫曼 |
| [36:55] | Captured in Peshawar, November 2002. | 2002年11月在白沙瓦被捕 |
| [36:57] | He’s not at Gitmo. He’s-he’s not anywhere. | 他不在关塔那摩 哪也没有他 |
| [37:06] | Gul Rahman. | 古尔·拉赫曼 |
| [37:08] | Gul… | 古尔 |
| [37:10] | No. They didn’t tell the committee about him. | 没有 他们没对委员会说起他 |
| [37:13] | He’s detainee number 24. | 他是24号受押人 |
| [37:21] | HQ says he knows operational detail about Al Qaeda. | 总部说他知道基地组织的行动细节 |
| [37:22] | 有窗口的金属门 墙上有锁链 摄像头 桶 墙底部有开口 | |
| [37:25] | The guy’s an asshole. | 这家伙是个混蛋 |
| [37:25] | 钴蓝拘留点 2002年11月 | |
| [37:27] | Threw his food at us, he threatened to kill the guards. | 用食物砸我们 威胁要杀了警卫 |
| [37:30] | I’ve asked headquarters to approve the application | 我已向总部申请批准 |
| [37:34] | of the enhanced measures for this detainee, | 对该受押人使用强化审讯技术 |
| [37:37] | and the request has been approved. | 申请通过了 |
| [37:39] | Great. We haven’t had any luck loosening him up. | 好极了 我们还没能让他开口 |
| [37:42] | Come on! | 快说 |
| [37:43] | Ran him up and down the hall, | 让他在通道里跑个不停 |
| [37:44] | beat the crap out of him… nothing. | 把他打个半死 还是什么都不说 |
| [37:48] | Even been trying this thing they call short shackling. | 甚至尝试了叫”短拷”的手段 |
| [37:52] | Chain a dude’s hands to a bolt on the floor. | 把双手拴在地板的螺栓上 |
| [37:55] | Then you chain his feet to the same bolt. | 把双脚也拴在同一螺栓上 |
| [37:59] | Farmers call it hog-tying, I think. | 农民好像把这个叫”五花大绑” |
| [38:02] | He finally admitted to something. | 他终于承认了一些事 |
| [38:04] | What was that? | 承认了什么 |
| [38:05] | That he was who we said he was: Gul Rahman. | 承认他是我们说的那个人 古尔·拉赫曼 |
| [38:12] | What you want to do first is take away his sense of control. | 你们首先要做的是剥夺他的掌控感 |
| [38:17] | If you like, I could spend some time showing you | 如果你们想 我可以花些时间展示给你们看 |
| [38:19] | how to achieve this with the enhanced techniques. | 怎么通过强化审讯技术实现这一点 |
| [38:24] | Great. | 很好 |
| [38:26] | We got another 30 guys here to deal with. | 我们还有三十个囚犯要审 |
| [38:31] | I heard you told the doctor you were cold. | 我听说你告诉医生你感觉冷 |
| [38:53] | Senator, do you have a few minutes this morning? | 参议员 今早能和我谈几分钟吗 |
| [38:55] | Absolutely. Come on in, Dan. | 当然 进来吧 丹 |
| [38:58] | The senator is needed on the floor for a vote. | 参议员需要到院内进行投票 |
| [39:01] | Give her five minutes. | 等她五分钟 |
| [39:04] | Did you sleep last night, Dan? | 你昨晚睡了吗 丹 |
| [39:10] | Senator, a prisoner died. | 参议员 有个囚犯死了 |
| [39:18] | Gul Rahman. | 古尔·拉赫曼 |
| [39:21] | They thought he was maybe working for an Afghan warlord | 他们认为他可能效力于阿富汗军阀 |
| [39:23] | or that he knew something about an attack. | 或者知道袭击的事 |
| [39:25] | – Did he? – No, he died before they found out | -是真的吗 -不 他们还没查出什么他就死了 |
| [39:26] | anything besides his name. | 只查出了他的名字 |
| [39:29] | Dumped cold water on him one night | 他们有天晚上往他身上倒了冷水 |
| [39:30] | and found him dead in his cell in the morning. | 第二天早晨发现他死在牢房里 |
| [39:32] | The autopsy said hypothermia. | 验尸结果是体温过低 |
| [39:34] | – Where did you get this from? – Inspector general’s report. | -你从哪知道的 -特别监察长的报告 |
| [39:37] | CIA did their own investigation into the death of Gul Rahman. | 中情局自己也调查了古尔·拉赫曼的死亡 |
| [39:44] | The officer in charge was recommended | 主管的职员被推荐 |
| [39:45] | for a performance bonus. | 获得绩效奖金 |
| [39:47] | They promoted him. | 他们提拔了他 |
| [39:48] | He’s still out there in the field. | 他还在外执行任务 |
| [39:55] | Well, are you accusing the CIA of murder, Dan? | 你是在指控中情局谋杀吗 丹 |
| [40:00] | Because that sounds like where this is going. | 因为我听起来就是这样的 |
| [40:03] | We have proof the deputy director | 我们有证据证明副局长 |
| [40:05] | coached the officer in charge how to cover up what happened, | 指导了主管职员如何掩盖事实 |
| [40:08] | told him to be careful what he put in writing. | 让他谨慎处理所记录的内容 |
| [40:12] | So, why would they need to cover it up | 如果他们遵循了标准操作流程 |
| [40:13] | if they were following standard operating procedure? | 为什么还要掩盖事实呢 |
| [40:17] | Why didn’t they tell the committee? | 他们为什么不告诉委员会 |
| [40:19] | Why didn’t they tell you? | 他们为什么不告诉你 |
| [40:25] | I’m gonna need to review all this personally. | 我要亲自审查一下这些 |
| [40:29] | It’s very disconcerting. | 非常令人不安 |
| [40:39] | “Disconcerting”? “Very disconcerting”? | “令人不安” “非常令人不安” |
| [40:41] | Dan, you need to be careful here. | 丹 这件事你要小心 |
| [40:43] | You’re getting emotionally involved. | 你掺入了个人情感 |
| [40:46] | They fucking killed a guy, and nobody was held accountable? | 他们杀了人 而没人被问责 |
| [40:50] | W-We don’t know he was a terrorist. | 我们不确定他是不是恐怖分子 |
| [40:52] | – We barely even know his name. – I understand. | -我们连他的名字都不确定 -我理解 |
| [40:55] | And what you need to understand is that | 而你需要理解的是 |
| [40:56] | her name is going on this report, not yours. | 出现在报告里的是她的名字 而不是你的 |
| [41:00] | Senate staff doesn’t have to run for reelection, | 参议院职员无需参加改选 |
| [41:02] | but she does. | 但她需要 |
| [41:04] | Their legal argument said EITs wouldn’t cause lasting harm. | 他们的法律文书说强化审讯技术不会造成持续伤害 |
| [41:07] | So how long is Gul Rahman gonna be dead for? | 那古尔·拉赫曼什么时候能活过来 |
| [41:19] | Are you guys seeing this Panetta review? | 你们看了这份帕涅塔的审查报告了吗 |
| [41:21] | It just showed up. | 突然蹦出来了 |
| [41:25] | I don’t understand. | 我不明白 |
| [41:26] | Looks like the CIA did their own investigation. | 中情局似乎进行了自己的调查 |
| [41:27] | 帕涅塔局长高级审查团队 引渡和拘留组项目 | |
| [41:29] | It confirms everything we’ve been finding. | 证明了我们发现的一切 |
| [41:37] | So, what are you gonna do with it? | 你打算怎么处理它 |
| [41:41] | Hopefully, nothing. | 希望用不上 |
| [41:44] | Special Prosecutor Durham, please? | 我找特别检察官杜伦 |
| [41:44] | 帕涅塔审查报告 最高机密 敏感信息隔离 | |
| [41:47] | I’ve already left several messages. | 我已经留言几次了 |
| [41:48] | It’s Dan Jones again from the Intelligence Committee. | 我是情报委员会的丹·琼斯 |
| [41:50] | How are you? | 你好吗 |
| [41:52] | Good. I just wanted to check in again to see | 很好 我只是想再确认一下 |
| [41:54] | if the special prosecutor is available | 特别检察官有没有时间 |
| [41:55] | to meet on the CIA probe. | 见面商谈对中情局的调查 |
| [41:59] | It can be off the record. I just want to compare notes. | 可以是非正式的 我只是想交换一下意见 |
| [42:04] | Yeah, same number. Thank you. | 是 就是这个号码 谢谢 |
| [42:10] | You know, we got to think back | 我们得回想一下 |
| [42:11] | to the period after 9/11. | 911事件后的那段时期 |
| [42:13] | We didn’t even know who hit us. | 我们都不知道是谁袭击了我们 |
| [42:14] | We didn’t know that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was | 我们都不知道哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德 |
| [42:16] | the mastermind of 9/11 | 是911事件的主谋 |
| [42:17] | or the operational commander of Al Qaeda. | 以及基地组织的行动指挥官 |
| [42:19] | And then we started rounding up these terrorists. | 然后我们开始围捕这些恐怖分子 |
| [42:19] | 军人还是平民 恐怖分子审判辩论 | |
| [42:20] | We caught Abu Zubaydah. | 我们抓到了阿布·祖贝达 |
| [42:21] | We caught, uh, Ramzi bin al-Shibh and KSM. | 我们抓到了拉姆齐·比纳尔什布和哈立德 |
| [42:24] | And these guys provided us information under questioning | 而这些人在中情局的审讯下 |
| [42:26] | by the CIA that stopped a number of terrorist attacks. | 为我们提供了情报 阻止了很多起恐怖袭击 |
| [42:30] | They were pl-planning to blow up | 他们计划炸毁 |
| [42:31] | the U.S. consulate in Karachi, Pakistan. | 美国在巴基斯坦卡拉奇的领事馆 |
| [42:34] | – Shit. – They were planning to blow up | -见鬼 -他们计划炸毁 |
| [42:35] | our Marine camp in Djibouti… | 我们在吉布提的海军陆战队营地 |
| [42:43] | – Good morning. – Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was | -早上好 -哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德 |
| [42:44] | indicted in New York for trying to blow up airplanes in 1995. | 1995年在纽约被控告试图炸毁飞机 |
| [42:49] | The CIA already knew about him. | 中情局早就知道他了 |
| [42:50] | They knew he was close to bin Laden. | 他们知道他与本·拉登关系密切 |
| [42:52] | They knew about him before Zubaydah ever identified him. | 在祖贝达供出他之前 他们就知道他了 |
| [42:54] | How long have you been here? | 你在这里多久了 |
| [42:55] | Also, according to this cable… a few hours… | 还有 根据这份电报 待了几个小时 |
| [42:57] | a CIA officer in Islamabad | 伊斯兰堡的一名中情局职员 |
| [42:59] | began working someone they call Asset X. | 开始审讯一名他们口中的”线人X” |
| [43:02] | X claimed to have direct access to KSM, | X自称能直接接触到哈立德 |
| [43:05] | but was eventually turned away when he asked for money. | 但最终因为想要钱而被赶走 |
| [43:08] | – How much money? – Few thousand bucks. | -多少钱 -几千块 |
| [43:11] | Two years later, after they’ve been putting him off, | 两年后 他们一直拖着他 |
| [43:13] | putting him off, putting him off, they finally pay him, | 拖着他 最终还是给了 |
| [43:15] | and almost immediately he sends a text | 然后他几乎立刻就发短信 |
| [43:17] | to his CIA handler saying: “I’m with KSM.” | 给他的中情局上线说 “我和哈立德在一起” |
| [43:20] | It had nothing to do with the waterboard. | 与水刑毫无关系 |
| [43:22] | – Good morning. – Good morning. | -早上好 -早上好 |
| [43:41] | 蓝色拘留点 2003年3月 | |
| [43:41] | One, two, three, | 一 二 三 |
| [43:44] | four, five, six… | 四 五 六 |
| [43:46] | Who are you working with in the U.S.? | 你在美国的同伙是谁 |
| [43:48] | …seven, eight, nine, 10, 11… | 七 八 九 十 十一 |
| [43:52] | We have your kids! | 你的孩子在我们手上 |
| [43:53] | …12, 13, 14, 15, | 十二 十三 十四 十五 |
| [43:56] | 16, 17… | 十六 十七 |
| [43:58] | It will stop if you talk! | 只要你开口 我们就停手 |
| [44:04] | Where is the next attack? | 下一次袭击在哪 |
| [44:06] | Canary Wharf! Canary Wharf! | 金丝雀码头 金丝雀码头 |
| [44:11] | Okay, here’s the problem. | 好的 问题是这样的 |
| [44:12] | We already know about | 我们已经知道了 |
| [44:14] | the Heathrow and Canary Wharf plots. | 希斯罗与金丝雀码头的袭击计划 |
| [44:17] | He knows that. It’s in his goddamn notebook. | 他也知道 他记在笔记本上了 |
| [44:19] | We asked about plots in the U.S., not London. | 我们问的是在美国的袭击计划 不是伦敦的 |
| [44:21] | – He’s fucking with you again. – To be honest, | -他又在糊弄你 -说实话 |
| [44:24] | I’ve never met a resistor like this guy. | 我从未见过像这个家伙这么顽固的人 |
| [44:27] | He’s a super resistor. | 他真很能扛 |
| [44:28] | He lied to you to make you stop. | 他骗了你 好让你住手 |
| [44:30] | He just tells us shit he knows we already have. | 他只交代我们已经掌握的情报 |
| [44:32] | That’s all he does. | 他只交代了这些 |
| [44:33] | Then that’s what we’re learning. | 那这就是我们所了解到的 |
| [44:37] | That’s what the waterboard is giving us. | 水刑让我们知道了这些信息 |
| [44:42] | We now know he’s lying. | 我们现在知道他在撒谎了 |
| [44:44] | I thought it was meant to give us the truth. | 难道不是应该帮我们得知真相吗 |
| [44:47] | And… the truth is he’s lying. | 那真相就是 他在撒谎 |
| [44:58] | Headquarters says we go again. | 总部让我们再继续审 |
| [45:03] | The chief of interrogations | 审讯的领导 |
| [45:04] | ordered the rectal rehydration Of KSM, | 下令为哈立德的直肠补液 |
| [45:06] | not for health reasons, | 并不是出于健康原因 |
| [45:08] | but as a way of showing total control over the detainee. | 而是为了展现对受押人的彻底控制 |
| [45:11] | Even though rectal rehydration was never | 尽管直肠补液这项技术 |
| [45:13] | an approved technique. | 从未受到许可 |
| [45:15] | Total control isn’t chaining the guy to the wall, | 彻底控制难道不是把他绑在墙上 |
| [45:17] | keeping him awake for days, and threatening his family? | 让他好几天不睡觉 并威胁他的家人吗 |
| [45:19] | You need to shove a tube up his ass? | 需要往他的屁股里插管子吗 |
| [45:22] | This right here is the rest of your life | 你的下半辈子就要这样度过 |
| [45:24] | unless you start telling the truth. | 除非你跟我们说实话 |
| [45:26] | Then they went back to waterboarding him. | 然后他们重新对他施以水刑 |
| [45:28] | “When a medical officer pressed on KSM’s…” | “当一名医务人员按压哈立德的…” |
| [45:29] | – Wait. Where are you? – Next page. | -等等 你说到哪了 -下一页 |
| [45:31] | “When a medical officer pressed on KSM’s abdomen, | “当一名医生按压哈立德的腹部时 |
| [45:33] | he expressed water from his mouth and nose.” | 他的口鼻中喷出了水” |
| [45:35] | So, he was swallowing all the water. | 所以他把所有的水都吞了下去 |
| [45:37] | “On March 17th, | “3月17日 |
| [45:38] | the waterboard technique began to evolve.” | 水刑技术开始进化” |
| [45:43] | Interrogators used their hands to maintain | 审讯者用手控制哈立德 |
| [45:44] | a pool of water over KSM’s nose and mouth. | 将水不断注入他的口鼻 |
| [45:58] | Who are the operatives inside the U.S.? | 你在美国国内的同伙是谁 |
| [46:02] | Issa… Issa… | 伊萨 伊萨 |
| [46:04] | Issa al-Britani. | 伊萨·阿尔布列塔尼 |
| [46:08] | Where is the next attack? | 下一次袭击在哪 |
| [46:10] | M-Montana. | 蒙大拿 |
| [46:14] | We got something. | 我们问出来了 |
| [46:17] | KSM told interrogators | 哈立德告诉审讯者 |
| [46:18] | he sent Abu Issa al-Britani to the U.S. | 他派了阿布·伊萨·阿尔布列塔尼到美国 |
| [46:21] | to recruit African American Muslims in Montana | 招募蒙大拿的非裔美籍穆斯林 |
| [46:24] | to blow up gas stations and start forest fires. | 引爆加油站以及制造森林火灾 |
| [46:26] | Montana? | 蒙大拿 |
| [46:27] | Muslims in Montana? | 蒙大拿的穆斯林 |
| [46:29] | The FBI had serious doubts as well. | 联调局对此也表示质疑 |
| [46:33] | Later, KSM admitted he just told them | 之后 哈立德承认他交代的是 |
| [46:34] | what they wanted to hear to make it stop. | 他们想听的话 以免受酷刑 |
| [46:36] | So, did they get anything actionable from him at all? | 他们从他那里问出可靠的情报了吗 |
| [46:40] | Anything that saved lives? | 能拯救性命的那种 |
| [46:42] | They waterboarded him 183 times, and then concluded | 他们对他用了183次水刑 然后得出结论 |
| [46:45] | KSM may never be forthcoming or honest. | 哈立德可能从未屈服 没说一句实话 |
| [46:47] | Everything they got from him | 他们从他嘴里听到的一切 |
| [46:49] | was either a lie or something they already had. | 要么是谎言 要么就是已经获取的情报 |
| [46:52] | Well, okay, so my first question is: | 好吧 我首先要问 |
| [46:55] | If it works, why do you need to do it 183 times? | 如果水刑有用 为什么要用183次 |
| [47:01] | Maybe when the report comes out, | 或许等报告出来后 |
| [47:02] | people will finally see that. | 人们都会明白这一点 |
| [47:04] | Well, let’s worry about getting it right, getting it done. | 我们还是操心怎么把报告写对 写完吧 |
| [47:07] | We can worry about changing the world later. | 改变世界的话以后再说 |
| [47:25] | Sorry I’m late. | 抱歉 我迟到了 |
| [47:26] | It’s okay. | 没关系 |
| [47:28] | – Barely slept. – Want some coffee? | -几乎没合眼 -来点咖啡吗 |
| [47:34] | Hey, can I ask you something? | 我能问你点事情吗 |
| [47:36] | You ever, uh, have dreams, | 你有没有做过梦 |
| [47:39] | you know, about the stuff that’s in the report? | 梦到报告里的东西 |
| [47:43] | Yeah. I have one where I’m drowning. | 有过 我梦到过我溺水了 |
| [47:46] | I can’t move my arms or legs. I can’t breathe. | 我的手脚不能动弹 也无法呼吸 |
| [47:48] | – That wakes me up. – Last night I dreamt | -然后我就醒了 -我昨晚梦到 |
| [47:50] | I was trapped in one of those confinement boxes. | 我被关在一个禁闭盒里 |
| [47:53] | They just left me there. | 他们把我留在那 |
| [47:55] | Daniel Jones, right? | 你是丹尼尔·琼斯吗 |
| [47:58] | – Do I know you? – I just wanted to tell you to your face | -我们认识吗 -我只是想当面告诉你 |
| [48:00] | that I think you and that report are garbage. | 你和那份报告都是垃圾 |
| [48:03] | – Excuse me… – You weren’t there, | -你说什么… -你又不在场 |
| [48:05] | so you don’t know what worked and what didn’t | 所以你不知道哪种手段有效 哪种无效 |
| [48:06] | or what we were up against. | 不知道我们面对的是什么人 |
| [48:08] | You may not realize, but we were trying | 你或许没意识到 但我们是想 |
| [48:09] | to protect this country from people who want to destroy | 保护这个国家不被那些人毁掉 |
| [48:11] | everything we believe in. | 保护我们所相信的一切 |
| [48:13] | You may not realize it, | 你或许没意识到 |
| [48:15] | but we’re trying to do the exact same thing. | 但我们要做的也是同样的事 |
| [48:17] | Your bullshit report will never see the light of day. | 你的狗屁报告永远都无法问世 |
| [48:25] | Special Prosecutor Durham, please. | 我找特别检察官杜伦 |
| [48:27] | It’s Dan Jones, calling again | 我是丹·琼斯 再次打来 |
| [48:29] | about the Justice Department investigation of the CIA. | 询问司法部对中情局的调查 |
| [48:32] | We really need to meet. | 我们真的得见一面 |
| [48:35] | You have? | 是吗 |
| [48:39] | Okay, what are their findings? | 好吧 他们有什么发现吗 |
| [48:51] | Fuck! | 该死 |
| [48:53] | Nothing? | 什么都没有吗 |
| [48:55] | No indictments at all? | 一次起诉都没有吗 |
| [48:56] | No charges against Jose Rodriguez or Gina Haspel | 没有针对何塞·罗德里格斯和吉娜·海斯佩尔 |
| [48:58] | for destroying the tapes. | 销毁录像带的指控吗 |
| [49:00] | Nothing against the CIA for torturing people. | 没有针对中情局使用酷刑的指控 |
| [49:02] | Nothing against Jim Pavitt and the others | 没有针对吉姆·帕维特或其他人 |
| [49:04] | for providing misinformation, nothing at all. | 提供错误信息的指控 什么都没有 |
| [49:06] | DOJ says they don’t have enough admissible evidence | 司法部表示他们没有足够的可采信证据 |
| [49:09] | to convict anyone. | 来给任何人定罪 |
| [49:10] | You go after the contractors, and they’re indemnified. | 你去找承包商 他们却受到保护 |
| [49:13] | You go after the head of Counterterrorism, | 你去找反恐中心主任 |
| [49:14] | and he’d just say he was following orders | 他只会说他是在执行 |
| [49:15] | from the CIA director. | 中情局局长的命令 |
| [49:17] | You go after the director, and he… | 你去找局长 他… |
| [49:18] | well, he would just cite the president. | 他就会把总统搬出来 |
| [49:19] | Then the White House would claim national security. | 白宫就会声称这涉及国家安全 |
| [49:22] | DOJ at least share what they found? | 司法部至少分享了他们的发现吧 |
| [49:24] | No. | 没有 |
| [49:28] | They won’t turn anything over. | 他们什么都不肯交出来 |
| [49:32] | We’re the only ones still looking at this. | 现在只有我们在调查这件事了 |
| [49:52] | Dan? | 丹 |
| [49:55] | Dan. | 丹 |
| [49:57] | You know a CIA officer | 你知道在1978年 |
| [49:58] | testified before Congress in 1978 regarding the use of | 一位中情局职员在国会 |
| [50:00] | coercive physical interrogation techniques in Latin America? | 就在拉丁美洲使用肉体强迫审讯技术一事作证吗 |
| [50:04] | And the officer said the techniques result | 这位职员说使用这些技术得到的是 |
| [50:05] | in false answers and have proven to be ineffective. | 错误答案 并已证明无效 |
| [50:08] | And before Latin America, they did it in Vietnam. | 在拉丁美洲之前 他们在越南也这样做 |
| [50:10] | Dan, I need to tell you something. | 丹 我要跟你说件事 |
| [50:10] | They knew it didn’t work and they did it again. | 他们知道没用 他们却继续用 |
| [50:12] | Don’t even listen to their own fucking people. | 连自己人的话都不听 |
| [50:13] | I’m leaving the study. | 我要退出这起调查了 |
| [50:15] | I… I got a job offer, and I can’t turn it down. | 我得到了一个工作机会 我无法拒绝 |
| [50:20] | I’m sorry, but don’t you see what this is doing to you? | 抱歉 但是你没发现这件事对你的影响吗 |
| [50:24] | To all of us? | 对我们所有人的影响 |
| [50:25] | I mean, my kids are at home growing up, | 我的孩子们都在家里成长 |
| [50:27] | and I’m down here reading about how they put a power drill | 而我就在这里读他们是如何把电钻 |
| [50:30] | against one guy’s head and-and how they pulled | 钻进一个人脑子里 他们是如何 |
| [50:32] | another guy’s arms out of his sockets. | 把另一个人的胳膊拉脱臼的 |
| [50:33] | And I just… this is how I’m spending my Sundays. | 我就是这样度过我的周日 |
| [50:36] | And my Saturdays. | 还有我的周六的 |
| [50:36] | This is how I spend every day. | 我每天都是这样过的 |
| [50:39] | I just… I-I-I-I can’t. | 我做不下去了 |
| [50:45] | I’m gonna leave after Thanksgiving. | 我会在感恩节后离开 |
| [50:53] | Okay. I understand. Okay. | 好的 我理解 好的 |
| [50:57] | Thanksgiving. | 感恩节 |
| [50:58] | That gives us… that gives us a couple months. | 那我们…我们还有几个月时间 |
| [51:01] | Dan, it’s November. | 丹 现在已经十一月了 |
| [51:05] | Thanksgiving is next week. | 下周就到感恩节了 |
| [51:09] | How many pages have we written so far? Thousands? | 目前为止我们写了多少页了 几千页吗 |
| [51:13] | We don’t even know if this is ever gonna come out. | 我们甚至不知道报告会不会公布 |
| [51:17] | The tapes investigation never did. | 录像带调查就从未公布 |
| [51:18] | It’s still classified. | 仍然是机密 |
| [51:20] | You just said it yourself: | 你刚刚自己也说了 |
| [51:21] | The CIA knew this shit didn’t work in 1978, | 中情局在1978年就知道这方法没用 |
| [51:24] | and it didn’t stop them from doing it again. | 也没能阻止他们继续用 |
| [51:29] | Look, we’ve been down here for two years, Dan, | 我们已经在这里两年了 丹 |
| [51:30] | in this basement. | 待在这个地下室 |
| [51:33] | Nobody’s waiting for us to come out. | 没人在等我们出来 |
| [52:14] | shocking photos that apparently show U.S. troops | 这些令人震惊的照片显示美军 |
| [52:14] | 伊拉克战争 令人震惊的照片 | |
| [52:16] | abusing detainees in a prison outside Baghdad. | 虐待巴格达郊外监狱的受押人 |
| [52:20] | We have a problem. | 我们有麻烦了 |
| [52:21] | Both myself and the president have gone on record | 我和总统都公开表示 |
| [52:23] | saying we do not torture people. | 我们不使用酷刑 |
| [52:27] | He just made a statement for the U.N.’s goddamn | 他刚刚对联合国的支持酷刑受害者国际日 |
| [52:29] | Day in Support of Victims of Torture. | 发表了声明 |
| [52:32] | What-what did he say? | 他怎么说的 |
| [52:37] | “The United States does not torture. | “美国不使用酷刑 |
| [52:40] | It’s against our laws and it’s against our values. | 这违背了我们的法律和价值观 |
| [52:43] | I have not authorized it, and I will not authorize it.” | 我没有授权过 我也不会授权” |
| [52:50] | I’m not sure where that leaves either of us. | 我不确定我们俩会面临什么下场 |
| [52:53] | So, here’s the deal. | 事情是这样的 |
| [52:55] | Some new lawyer over at OLC, Jack Goldsmith, | 法律顾问办公室有个新律师 杰克·戈德史密斯 |
| [52:59] | is saying there are issues with the John Yoo memo. | 他说约翰·尤的备忘录有问题 |
| [53:02] | Legal issues? | 法律问题吗 |
| [53:03] | Yeah, and there’s the inspector general’s report: | 是的 还有特别监察长的报告 |
| [53:05] | allegations of war crimes and torture. | 关于战争罪和酷刑的指控 |
| [53:08] | Throws the whole program under the goddamn bus. | 整个项目都被当成替罪羊了 |
| [53:11] | What’s it say? | 报告说了什么 |
| [53:13] | “The inspector general finds that EITs are inconsistent | “特别监察长认为强化审讯技术 |
| [53:17] | with the public policy positions | 与美国在人权问题上的 |
| [53:18] | the United States has taken regarding human rights,” | 公共政策立场不一致” |
| [53:22] | blah, blah, blah. | 等等等等 |
| [53:24] | “The program, as implemented, | “该项目在实施过程中 |
| [53:26] | diverges sharply from how the CIA has described,” blah, blah. | 与中情局的描述大相径庭” 等等 |
| [53:31] | “There is also little evidence that the waterboard | “几乎没有证据表明水刑 |
| [53:34] | is effective in gaining information.” | 在获取信息方面是有效的” |
| [53:36] | Look, guys, Director Tenet wants to pause the program. | 特尼特局长想暂停这个项目 |
| [53:41] | You know, I retired from the Air Force | 我在911事件的前几个月 |
| [53:44] | just a couple of months before 9/11. | 从空军退役 |
| [53:47] | 22 years. | 服役了22年 |
| [53:51] | And then I wake up that morning, | 然后那天早上我醒来 |
| [53:53] | and I turn on the news and… | 我打开新闻台 |
| [53:58] | see what’s happening. | 看到发生了什么 |
| [54:02] | A lot of people just went back to their coffee and cornflakes. | 很多人就继续回去喝咖啡吃玉米片了 |
| [54:06] | But Jim wanted to do something | 但吉姆是想做点什么 |
| [54:11] | to keep people safe. | 来保护人们的安全 |
| [54:13] | We are going right back to the National Security Council today | 我们今天就去找国家安全委员会 |
| [54:16] | and asking to have the program recertified, | 要求重新认证该项目 |
| [54:18] | as many techniques as possible. | 尽可能认证更多审讯技术 |
| [54:21] | We have a plan. | 我们有计划 |
| [54:23] | Thank you. Thank you. | 谢谢 谢谢 |
| [54:34] | 2004年7月6日 美国国家安全顾问康多莉扎·赖斯 批准对受押人贾纳特·古尔 使用重新认证的强化审讯技术 | |
| [54:45] | Jones. | 琼斯 |
| [54:47] | Yes, Senator. | 好的 参议员 |
| [54:57] | On the Sunday talk shows, | 在周日的脱口秀节目中 |
| [54:58] | former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld | 前国防部长唐纳德·拉姆斯菲尔德 |
| [55:01] | and former Vice President Dick Cheney argued | 和前副总统迪克·切尼表示 |
| [55:03] | enhanced interrogation techniques played a major role | 强化审讯技术在突袭本·拉登住所的行动中 |
| [55:06] | in leading up to the raid on bin Laden’s compound. | 起到了重要的指引作用 |
| [55:09] | No, that’s not right. That’s not what happened. | 不 不是的 事情不是这样的 |
| [55:11] | – It was not torture. – I’ll look into it. | -那不是酷刑 -我会调查的 |
| [55:12] | And, uh, I would strongly recommend that we continue it. | 我强烈建议我们继续这样做 |
| [55:15] | At the heart of the controversy is a process called waterboarding. | 争议的核心是一种被称为水刑的审讯手段 |
| [55:22] | Okay, here’s what the CIA is claiming: | 好吧 中情局是这样说的 |
| [55:24] | They got bin Laden after using EITs against detainees. | 他们对受押人使用了强化审讯技术后发现了本·拉登 |
| [55:31] | They say it all started in 2002 with Abu Zubaydah | 他们说这一切都始于2002年阿布·祖贝达 |
| [55:36] | and a detainee they called “Riyadh the Facilitator,” | 和一个叫做”调解人利雅得”的受押人 |
| [55:40] | who tipped them off to Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti, | 是他向阿布·艾哈迈德·科威特通风报信 |
| [55:42] | who had ties to bin Laden. | 他与本·拉登有联系 |
| [55:43] | That’s not what happened? | 事情不是这样吗 |
| [55:44] | The truth is the CIA was on al-Kuwaiti’s phones, | 事实是 在中情局抓获任何受押人之前 |
| [55:47] | e-mails, identity, long before they captured any detainees. | 就已经监控了科威特的手机和电邮 得知了他的身份 |
| [55:52] | Before they even had an EIT program. | 在他们有强化审讯技术项目之前 |
| [55:55] | Zubaydah told us al-Kuwaiti had nothing to do with bin Laden. | 祖贝达告诉我们科威特和本·拉登没有关系 |
| [55:58] | Same with KSM and-and the others. | 和哈立德以及其他人也没有关系 |
| [56:02] | But now we have former CIA Director Michael Hayden | 而现在中情局前局长迈克尔·海登 |
| [56:04] | on the radio saying this all came from EITs. | 在广播里说这些都是通过强化审讯技术得来的 |
| [56:07] | And former Attorney General Mukasey is out there saying | 而前司法部长穆凯西说 |
| [56:09] | KSM broke like a dam after waterboarding. | 哈立德在遭受水刑后就什么都招了 |
| [56:12] | Where is he saying that? | 他在哪里说的 |
| [56:13] | Wall Street Journal. I found a memo. | 《华尔街日报》 我找到了一个备忘录 |
| [56:16] | It’s from a few months back, in March. | 几个月前的 三月的 |
| [56:17] | It’s called “The Public Roll-out.” | 叫”公开推出” |
| [56:19] | The memo states the Agency wanted their PR people | 备忘录说中情局希望他们的公关人员 |
| [56:23] | to connect the bin Laden raid to intel obtained via EITs | 将突袭本·拉登和用强化审讯技术获取的情报联系起来 |
| [56:27] | before it even happened. | 那时行动还没进行 |
| [56:29] | So… if the CIA got bin Laden, | 所以 只要中情局抓到了本·拉登 |
| [56:32] | then who cares what else it did? | 那谁还在乎他们还做了什么呢 |
| [56:36] | If it saved lives, there’s no need for accountability. | 只要他们拯救了人命 就不需要被问责 |
| [56:38] | Exactly. They lied to Bush about the program. | 没错 他们在这个项目上骗了布什 |
| [56:40] | Now they’re lying to President Obama. | 现在他们又在骗奥巴马总统 |
| [56:42] | This document about bin Laden and, uh, the role of EITs, | 这个关于本·拉登和强化审讯技术作用的文件 |
| [56:46] | it just isn’t true. | 不是真的 |
| [56:55] | You want me to get you the White House? | 你想要我给白宫打电话吗 |
| [56:59] | Let’s do that. | 打吧 |
| [57:03] | It’s very clear to us | 我们很清楚 |
| [57:06] | the EITs did not lead to bin Laden. | 强化审讯技术没有提供关于本·拉登的情报 |
| [57:09] | The CIA is misrepresenting the operation. | 中情局歪曲了这次行动 |
| [57:12] | I’m sure you see that, don’t you? | 你肯定发现了吧 |
| [57:14] | I’m not sure I understand, Senator. | 我不太明白 参议员 |
| [57:16] | The mission was a success; That’s the headline here. | 行动成功了 这才是关键 |
| [57:19] | This is a crucial moment in our nation’s history. | 这是我国历史上的关键时刻 |
| [57:22] | I want to make certain that the Agency isn’t manipulating it | 我想确认中情局没有利用它 |
| [57:27] | to sanitize their own past actions. | 来美化他们过去的行为 |
| [57:30] | I will let the national security advisor know your concerns, Senator. | 我会将你的担忧转告给国家安全顾问 参议员 |
| [57:34] | – Thank you. – Thank you, Senator Feinstein. | -谢谢 -谢谢 范斯坦参议员 |
| [57:39] | That’s it? | 就这样吗 |
| [57:40] | They don’t care the story is wrong? | 他们不在乎这件事是假的吗 |
| [57:44] | Well, I don’t think we can look to the White House for support. | 我认为我们不能指望白宫的支持了 |
| [57:57] | What the hell just happened? | 刚刚发生了什么 |
| [57:59] | The CIA just got the president reelected. | 中情局让总统得以连任了 |
| [58:02] | That’s what happened. | 事情就是这样 |
| [58:07] | It was the greatest manhunt of all time. | 这是有史以来最为重大的追捕行动 |
| [58:11] | You think you know the story, | 你以为你知道这个故事了 |
| [58:14] | but hold on to your seats. | 但请坐好 |
| [58:16] | Zero Dark Thirty, the riveting new film, | 《猎杀本·拉登》 一部引人入胜的新电影 |
| [58:19] | brings you the hunt for Osama bin Laden | 讲述了无人知晓的 |
| [58:21] | as it has never been seen before. | 追捕奥萨马·本·拉登的故事 |
| [58:39] | This is it. The last guy we have. | 到此为止了 这是最后一个了 |
| [58:42] | Number 119: Muhammad Rahim, | 第119号 穆罕默德·拉希姆 |
| [58:45] | captured June 2007. | 2007年六月被捕 |
| [58:57] | We kept Rahim awake | 我们让拉希姆 |
| [58:58] | for 138 hours straight. | 138个小时没有睡觉 |
| [59:01] | Used the attention grasp, | 使用了立正抓领 |
| [59:04] | facial hold, dietary manipulation. | 控头技术 强迫流食 |
| [59:07] | Abdominal slaps, stress positions. | 拳击腹部 压力姿势 |
| [59:10] | We even offered him a towel to wear if he cooperated. | 我们甚至提出如果他合作 就给他一条毛巾 |
| [59:13] | Gave us nothing. | 他什么也没说 |
| [59:14] | He said that, if we hurt him, | 他说如果我们伤害他 |
| [59:18] | he’d just make things up to get us to stop. | 他就编造一些事情让我们住手 |
| [59:20] | And then he said he was at our mercy | 然后他又说 任由我们处置 |
| [59:22] | and we could kill him if we wanted. | 要杀要剐随便 |
| [59:25] | What’s the point of moving forward without the waterboard? | 不能用水刑 继续审讯有什么用 |
| [59:28] | It’s like trying to play baseball without the bat. | 这就像打棒球没有球棒一样 |
| [59:30] | We’ve been going at him for 60 days now, | 我们已经审了他六十天 |
| [59:33] | not getting anywhere. | 什么进展都没有 |
| [59:35] | The problem is that CTC hasn’t given us | 问题是反恐中心没有给我们提供 |
| [59:39] | any good intel to question him about. | 任何有利于审讯的情报 |
| [59:42] | We don’t have any leverage. | 我们没有任何筹码 |
| [59:43] | Hold on. You’re the psychologists. | 等等 你是心理学家 |
| [59:45] | You told me you were gonna get us intel. | 你说你会为我们获取情报 |
| [59:46] | Now you’re saying we need to give it to you? | 而现在你却说我们需要给你提供情报 |
| [59:48] | I’m thinking we improve his treatment for a week or two, | 我想我们应该善待他一两周 |
| [59:54] | give him some hope, and then we go back at him hard | 给他一些希望 然后再狠狠地折磨他 |
| [59:58] | and create a sense of helplessness. | 制造一种无助感 |
| [1:00:00] | Or we could try recruiting him. | 或者我们可以试着策反他 |
| [1:00:05] | Tell him he can be a | 跟他说 只要他肯开口 |
| [1:00:07] | CIA agent if he talks. | 就能成为中情局探员 |
| [1:00:09] | The FBI does that. | 联调局就是这么干的 |
| [1:00:10] | We’re not the FBI. We don’t do that. | 我们不是联调局 不会这么干 |
| [1:00:12] | The way the science works is | 科学的获取情报方式是 |
| [1:00:14] | we only get the intel after… | 只有在我们… |
| [1:00:17] | After what? | 要怎么样 |
| [1:00:19] | Why are so many of these guys still lying to us | 为什么这么多人在你们的审讯下 |
| [1:00:21] | after you work on them? | 还是对我们撒谎 |
| [1:00:25] | Where’s the special sauce? | 秘诀在哪里 |
| [1:00:29] | You have to make this work. It’s only legal if it works. | 你们必须做出效果 有效果才合法 |
| [1:00:34] | The CIA’s questioning of Muhammad Rahim | 中情局对穆罕默德·拉希姆的审讯 |
| [1:00:36] | resulted in zero intelligence reports. | 没有得出任何情报报告 |
| [1:00:39] | On April 21, 2008, the Agency convened | 2008年4月21日 中情局 |
| [1:00:42] | an after-action review of his interrogation. | 对他的审讯进行了事后审查 |
| [1:00:45] | Senator, I just want to point out that this is the first time | 参议员 我想指出这是中情局第一次 |
| [1:00:46] | the Agency stopped and evaluated the effectiveness of the program. | 停下来评估该项目的有效性 |
| [1:00:51] | And they concluded that, in the future, | 他们得出的结论是 在未来 |
| [1:00:53] | CIA interrogators should use rapport building. | 中情局的审讯人员应使用建立友好关系的方法 |
| [1:00:58] | They even suggested asking other agencies, | 他们还建议向其它机构 |
| [1:01:01] | law enforcement, and even other countries | 执法机关 甚至是其它国家 |
| [1:01:03] | about effective interrogation methods. | 咨询有效的审讯方法 |
| [1:01:07] | So… | 这么说 |
| [1:01:11] | For the past six years, there’s been a steady stream of CIA personnel… | 在过去的六年里 中情局的人 |
| [1:01:16] | directors, deputies, analysts… | 包括局长 副局长和分析员 |
| [1:01:19] | coming over here and telling me | 源源不断地过来跟我说 |
| [1:01:21] | what an amazing success EITs have been. | 强化审讯技术有多成功 |
| [1:01:25] | Somehow not even one of them managed to mention that part. | 但没有一个人跟我提过这件事 |
| [1:01:35] | How many detainees have been through the program in total? | 总共有多少名受押人经历过这个项目 |
| [1:01:42] | At least 119. | 至少119名 |
| [1:01:46] | The Agency admits a quarter of them | 中情局承认其中有四分之一的受押人 |
| [1:01:47] | should never have been detained. | 本不应该被拘留 |
| [1:01:50] | The EIT program never worked, not on anyone. | 强化审讯技术项目从没对任何人奏效 |
| [1:02:04] | Today, we are gathered to approve | 今天 我们聚集在此批准 |
| [1:02:08] | the committee’s study of the CIA Detention and Interrogation Program. | 委员会对中情局拘留和审讯项目的调查报告 |
| [1:02:14] | I would like to thank Daniel Jones | 我要感谢丹尼尔·琼斯 |
| [1:02:17] | and his small staff who prepared this study. | 和他的小团队准备了这项报告 |
| [1:02:21] | Clerk, would you call the roll? | 书记员 请唱名表决 |
| [1:02:25] | – Mr. Udall? – Yay. | -尤德尔先生 -赞成 |
| [1:02:28] | – Mr. Rubio? – Nay. | -鲁比奥先生 -反对 |
| [1:02:31] | – Mr. Rockefeller? – Yay. | -洛克菲勒先生 -赞成 |
| [1:02:34] | – Mr. Warner? – Yay. | -沃纳先生 -赞成 |
| [1:02:36] | – Mr. Blunt? – Nay. | -布朗特先生 -反对 |
| [1:02:39] | – Mr. Conrad? – Yay. | -康拉德先生 -赞成 |
| [1:02:41] | – Mr. Coats? – Nay. | -科茨先生 -反对 |
| [1:02:43] | – Mr. Nelson? – Yay. | -纳尔逊先生 -赞成 |
| [1:02:46] | – Mr. Risch? – Nay. | -里施先生 -反对 |
| [1:02:48] | – Ms. Mikulski? – Yay. | -米库斯基先生 -赞成 |
| [1:02:51] | – Mr. Burr? – Nay. | -布尔先生 -反对 |
| [1:02:53] | – Mr. Wyden? – Yay. | -怀登先生 -赞成 |
| [1:02:55] | – Ms. Snowe? – Yay. | -斯诺女士 -赞成 |
| [1:02:58] | – Mr. Chambliss? – Nay. | -钱布里斯先生 -反对 |
| [1:03:02] | Ms. Feinstein? | 范斯坦女士 |
| [1:03:04] | Yay. | 赞成 |
| [1:03:09] | The motion passes. | 动议通过 |
| [1:03:11] | The report will now be sent to the CIA for final comments. | 报告现在将送交中情局作最后评论 |
| [1:03:20] | I, John Owen Brennan, | 我 约翰·欧文·布伦南 |
| [1:03:21] | do solemnly swear to tell the truth, the full truth, | 庄严宣誓 保证如实陈述真相 |
| [1:03:23] | and nothing but the truth, so help me God. | 毫无隐瞒 上帝保佑 |
| [1:03:26] | Thank you, Mr. Brennan. | 谢谢 布伦南先生 |
| [1:03:29] | I look forward to hearing your testimony. | 我很期待听到你的证词 |
| [1:03:34] | I am honored to appear before you today | 今天我很荣幸 |
| [1:03:36] | as the president’s nominee for director of the CIA. | 能作为总统提名的中情局局长在此陈述 |
| [1:03:41] | I’d like to say from the beginning that honesty… truthfulness… | 首先我想说 诚实与真诚 |
| [1:03:46] | was a value inculcated in me growing up in New Jersey | 是我在新泽西长大时 |
| [1:03:49] | by my parents, Owen and Dorothy. | 我的父母欧文和多萝西反复灌输给我的价值观 |
| [1:03:51] | Now, none of us are perfect beings. | 人无完人 |
| [1:03:53] | I am far from perfect. | 我并不完美 |
| [1:03:55] | But I will be honest with this committee | 但我将对委员会保持诚实 |
| [1:03:57] | and do everything possible to meet your legitimate needs and requirements. | 并尽一切可能满足你们的合理需要和要求 |
| [1:04:02] | Mr. Brennan, | 布伦南先生 |
| [1:04:04] | I’ve long believed that our government has an obligation | 我一直认为 我们的政府对美国人民有义务 |
| [1:04:06] | to the American people to face its mistakes transparently, | 应当公开面对自己犯下的错误 |
| [1:04:11] | to help the public understand the nature of those mistakes, | 帮助公众理解这些错误的性质 |
| [1:04:14] | and to correct them. | 并予以纠正 |
| [1:04:16] | The enhanced interrogation techniques were brutal, | 强化审讯技术很残忍 |
| [1:04:20] | and, perhaps most importantly, they did not work. | 也许最重要的是 它们并没有用 |
| [1:04:23] | Now, the CIA has a responsibility | 中情局有责任 |
| [1:04:26] | to correct any inaccurate information it provided | 更正之前提供给 |
| [1:04:28] | to the previous White House, the Department of Justice, | 前任政府 司法部 |
| [1:04:30] | Congress and the public. | 国会和公众的任何不实信息 |
| [1:04:32] | So, here’s my question: | 我的问题是 |
| [1:04:35] | Do you agree that the CIA has this responsibility? | 你是否同意中情局对此负有责任 |
| [1:04:38] | And I’d appreciate a yes or no answer. | 希望你能回答是或否 |
| [1:04:42] | Yes, Senator. | 是的 参议员 |
| [1:04:46] | Absolutely. | 绝对有责任 |
| [1:04:49] | Office of the chief of staff. | 幕僚长办公室 |
| [1:04:51] | Mr. McDonough is in a meeting right now. | 麦克多纳先生正在开会 |
| [1:04:53] | According to the latest NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll, | 全国广播公司新闻最新消息 《华尔街日报》民调显示 |
| [1:04:55] | the president’s approval rating is at 44%. | 总统的支持率为百分之四十四 |
| [1:04:58] | That’s up three points since March… | 比三月份增长了三个百分点 |
| [1:05:00] | Excuse me. Mr. McDonough. | 打扰了 麦克多纳先生 |
| [1:05:02] | Director Brennan is here. | 布伦南局长来了 |
| [1:05:05] | There he is. | 你来了 |
| [1:05:06] | – Congratulations, Mr. Director. – Thank you. | -祝贺 局长先生 -谢谢 |
| [1:05:08] | Welcome. Come on in. Thank you. | 欢迎 请进 谢谢 |
| [1:05:10] | Thank you and thank President Obama. | 谢谢你和奥巴马总统 |
| [1:05:13] | I’ll let him know. | 我会向他转达 |
| [1:05:13] | Speaking of, uh, | 说到这个 |
| [1:05:16] | he wanted me to ask you if there’s any new information | 他想让我问问你 是否有关于 |
| [1:05:18] | on the drone strikes of April 29th? | 4月29日无人机袭击的最新消息 |
| [1:05:21] | We can confirm that the Al Qaeda planner | 我们可以确认基地组织的策划者 |
| [1:05:24] | Abu Sulayman al-Jazairi has been killed. | 阿布·所罗门·艾尔加扎里已被击毙 |
| [1:05:28] | Unfortunately, we also believe | 不幸的是 我们还认为 |
| [1:05:30] | that there were between five and ten civilian casualties. | 有五到十名平民伤亡 |
| [1:05:34] | Shit. | 见鬼 |
| [1:05:36] | Well, I’ll let the president know. | 我会转告总统 |
| [1:05:38] | What about the Intelligence Committee report? | 情报委员会的调查报告怎么样 |
| [1:05:40] | We need to talk about that. | 我们得谈谈这件事 |
| [1:05:42] | John, w-we gave the CIA until February | 约翰 我们让中情局在二月前 |
| [1:05:45] | to come up with its response; it’s now May. | 作出回应 现在已经五月了 |
| [1:05:46] | I’ve got Senator Feinstein all over my phone sheet. | 范斯坦参议员不停地给我打电话 |
| [1:05:50] | I don’t want to be the one who has to push on this, | 我不想催促你们 |
| [1:05:51] | but the president would really like to get this behind us. | 但总统非常想解决这件事情 |
| [1:06:00] | And? | 然后呢 |
| [1:06:02] | We acknowledge that | 我们承认 |
| [1:06:04] | the Detention and Interrogation Program had shortcomings | 拘留和审讯项目存在缺陷 |
| [1:06:06] | and that the Agency made mistakes. | 中情局犯了错 |
| [1:06:08] | The most serious of those occurred early on | 其中最严重的问题发生在早期 |
| [1:06:10] | and stemmed from the fact that we were unprepared. | 其根源在于我们没有做好准备 |
| [1:06:15] | Now, as you know, we part ways on some key points. | 如大家所知 我们在一些关键问题上有分歧 |
| [1:06:19] | According to our review, indications are that | 根据我们的审查 有迹象表明 |
| [1:06:22] | interrogations of detainees upon whom | 对受押人 |
| [1:06:24] | the enhanced interrogation techniques were used | 进行的强化审讯 |
| [1:06:27] | did produce unique intelligence | 确实得到了独特的情报 |
| [1:06:30] | that helped thwart attack plans, | 这帮助我们阻碍了袭击计划 |
| [1:06:32] | capture terrorists, and saved lives. | 抓获了恐怖分子 拯救了生命 |
| [1:06:34] | Excuse me, intelligence gathered from EITs… | 不好意思 强化审讯技术所收集的情报… |
| [1:06:35] | And that intelligence continues to inform our counterterrorism efforts. | 这些情报继续为我们的反恐行动提供信息 |
| [1:06:40] | It led us to bin Laden. | 让我们找到了本·拉登 |
| [1:06:43] | Now, it’s one thing to disapprove of the program. | 不赞成这个项目是一回事 |
| [1:06:45] | I-I welcome that conversation, | 我愿闻其详 |
| [1:06:47] | but it’s something else altogether | 但要说我们对此处理不当 效率低下 |
| [1:06:48] | to say that it was mismanaged and ineffective. | 那就完全是另外一回事了 |
| [1:06:50] | Excuse me, Director Brennan. | 不好意思 布伦南局长 |
| [1:06:52] | The report is based on CIA records. | 报告基于中情局的记录 |
| [1:06:54] | CIA officers themselves called it ineffective. | 中情局职员自称该项目无效 |
| [1:06:57] | CIA officers? | 中情局职员 |
| [1:06:59] | Well, you didn’t speak to any CIA officers in the program, | 你没有和该项目中的任何中情局职员谈过吧 |
| [1:07:01] | did you, Dan? | 你有吗 丹 |
| [1:07:02] | Your lawyers would not make them available to us | 由于司法部的刑事调查 |
| [1:07:05] | because of the Department of Justice’s criminal inquiry. | 你们的律师不会让我们跟他们谈 |
| [1:07:08] | We also disagree with the study’s characterization of | 我们也不赞同该调查中对中情局 |
| [1:07:12] | how the CIA briefed Congress, the White House and the press. | 如何向国会 白宫和媒体汇报情况的描述 |
| [1:07:16] | Now, we have documentation that certainly proves that. | 我们有文件可以证明汇报属实 |
| [1:07:18] | Excuse me, sir, what documents? | 不好意思 先生 什么文件 |
| [1:07:20] | If the director is referencing | 如果局长指的是 |
| [1:07:21] | cables or e-mails we were never shown, | 我们没有见过的电报和邮件 |
| [1:07:23] | then that’s a violation of our agreement. | 那就违反了我们的协议 |
| [1:07:25] | Everything was supposed to have been provided to us. | 一切资料都应该向我们提供 |
| [1:07:27] | Do we just give the committee access | 我们要让委员会进入 |
| [1:07:29] | to the entire CIA computer system? | 中情局的整个电脑系统吗 |
| [1:07:31] | Is that where this goes? | 这就是所谓的协议吗 |
| [1:07:33] | Dan gets to read every e-mail, gets to see every document? | 丹要看每一封电邮 每一份文件 |
| [1:07:37] | Every relevant document or e-mail, yes. | 是的 他要看每一份相关文件或电邮 |
| [1:07:42] | I have always supported the intelligence community. | 我一直支持情报机构 |
| [1:07:45] | I broke with my own party | 为了支持无人机项目 |
| [1:07:47] | to support the drone program, | 我与自己的政党分道扬镳 |
| [1:07:50] | but what this report makes very clear | 但这份报告非常清楚地表明 |
| [1:07:53] | is a real need for oversight and accountability. | 你们确实需要监督和问责 |
| [1:07:57] | You asked for our response, and we gave it to you. | 你们要求我们作出回应 我们做到了 |
| [1:07:59] | We looked in the mirror. | 我们反省了自己 |
| [1:08:02] | Now, we made mistakes. | 我们的确犯了错 |
| [1:08:05] | There were abuses, and those abuses have been addressed. | 项目存在弊端 这些弊端已得到解决 |
| [1:08:08] | But I-I vehemently disagree with the narrative | 但我坚决不同意 |
| [1:08:12] | that you’re trying to string together here. | 你们在报告中的说法 |
| [1:08:14] | It lacks context. | 它脱离了事情原委 |
| [1:08:16] | It does not paint an accurate picture of the work that was done. | 它没有准确地描述我们所做的工作 |
| [1:08:20] | Let’s go. | 走 |
| [1:08:21] | Senator, John Brennan’s name is in that report. | 参议员 报告上有约翰·布伦南的名字 |
| [1:08:24] | He was Director Tenet’s chief of staff | 他当时是特尼特局长的幕僚长 |
| [1:08:26] | and then deputy executive director when the program started. | 项目开始时 他是副执行局长 |
| [1:08:29] | – He grew up at the Agency. – He claims to have | -他在中情局不断晋升 -他声称 |
| [1:08:31] | – spoken out against the EIT program… – Where? | -他反对过强化审讯技术项目 -哪里 |
| [1:08:32] | I just spent five years looking at their e-mails. | 我花了五年时间看他们的电邮 |
| [1:08:34] | I never found anything to suggest that’s true. | 从没找到任何信息表明这是真的 |
| [1:08:36] | Well, we knew this wasn’t going to be easy. | 我们知道这并不容易 |
| [1:08:39] | They have their own narrative, and they’re gonna stick to it. | 他们有自己的说法 并且会坚持下去 |
| [1:08:42] | Maybe we could come up with some middle ground, | 也许我们可以找到一个折中的办法 |
| [1:08:44] | – find some common language. – I thought our job | -找到一些共同语言 -我以为我们的工作 |
| [1:08:46] | was to provide oversight and accountability, | 是提供监督和进行问责 |
| [1:08:48] | not middle ground. | 而不是折中 |
| [1:08:50] | I have a question for you. | 我问你个问题 |
| [1:08:52] | Do you work for me or for the report? | 你是为我工作还是为报告工作 |
| [1:08:56] | And I’d encourage you to think about that before answering. | 我劝你好好想想再回答 |
| [1:09:14] | Dan! | 丹 |
| [1:09:15] | Dan Jones. | 丹·琼斯 |
| [1:09:18] | There he is. | 你在这啊 |
| [1:09:19] | Look at you, chief investigator | 瞧瞧你 参议院有史以来 |
| [1:09:21] | of the largest study the Senate’s ever conducted. | 最大规模调查的首席调查员 |
| [1:09:23] | My God. How you doing? | 天呐 你最近怎么样 |
| [1:09:25] | It’s good to see you in the fresh air. | 很高兴看到你出来呼吸新鲜空气 |
| [1:09:27] | – Yeah. – It’s so funny. | -是啊 -说来好笑 |
| [1:09:28] | I was just thinking the other night, | 我前几天晚上正好想到 |
| [1:09:29] | do you remember that time you came and saw me, | 你还记得那时候你刚毕业 |
| [1:09:32] | right after you got out of school? | 来找我的时候吗 |
| [1:09:34] | You said go get intel experience, | 你说多积累点做情报的经验 |
| [1:09:36] | wait till the Dems got the Senate back. | 等民主党在参议院东山再起 |
| [1:09:37] | And look at you now: | 看看你现在 |
| [1:09:39] | working for the Senate Intelligence Committee | 为参议院情报委员会工作 |
| [1:09:40] | for Dianne Feinstein. | 为黛安·范斯坦工作 |
| [1:09:42] | You told me once you wanted to make a difference. | 你之前跟我说你想带来改变 |
| [1:09:44] | I hope you still get that chance. | 我希望你还有那种机会 |
| [1:09:46] | – What does that mean? – What does that mean? | -这是什么意思 -什么意思 |
| [1:09:48] | It means, Dan, | 意思是 丹 |
| [1:09:48] | get out of the senator’s head about the CIA. | 不要再去管参议员调查中情局的事情了 |
| [1:09:52] | You’re not doing yourself any favors. | 对你没有任何好处 |
| [1:09:53] | Have you read the report? | 你读过报告了吗 |
| [1:09:55] | It’s 7,000 pages, Dan. | 七千页呢 丹 |
| [1:09:58] | The Bible tells the history of mankind in less than that. | 圣经讲全人类的历史也没用那么多页 |
| [1:10:03] | Look, buddy, | 听着 伙计 |
| [1:10:05] | we’re gonna get the CIA to sit down with you, | 我们会找中情局的人跟你面谈的 |
| [1:10:08] | tell you their side of the story. | 跟你讲讲他们的说法 |
| [1:10:10] | It would help if you would listen. | 你愿意听的话会有帮助的 |
| [1:10:14] | The study seems to most seriously diverge | 这项调查引导读者去相信 |
| [1:10:16] | from the facts by asking the reader to believe | 中情局向行政部门和国会 |
| [1:10:19] | the CIA withheld information | 隐瞒信息 |
| [1:10:21] | from the executive branch and Congress. | 这严重偏离事实 |
| [1:10:24] | We’d like to see that removed from the report. | 我们希望将那些内容从报告里删除 |
| [1:10:27] | After the photos of Abu Ghraib came out in 2004, | 2004年阿布格莱布监狱的照片被曝光后 |
| [1:10:29] | Deputy Director McLaughlin appeared before Congress, | 麦克劳林副局长去过国会 |
| [1:10:31] | in front of you, and said the CIA is not authorized | 在你面前声称中情局没有被授权 |
| [1:10:34] | to do anything like what you’ve seen in those photos. | 去做那些照片上的任何事情 |
| [1:10:36] | But what they were doing was even worse. | 但他们做的事情比这还要恶劣 |
| [1:10:38] | Then in 2005, Senator Rockefeller | 然后在2005年 洛克菲勒参议员 |
| [1:10:41] | called for a review of the program, | 要求审查这个项目 |
| [1:10:42] | and the deputy chief of Counterterrorism | 反恐中心副主任 |
| [1:10:44] | got nervous where that might lead. | 对审查的走向感到紧张 |
| [1:10:46] | So he sent a message to senior leadership | 他给高层领导发了消息 |
| [1:10:48] | discussing the need to manage the situation. | 讨论了控制局势的必要性 |
| [1:10:51] | He said, “We either get out and sell, or we get hammered. | 他说 “我们要么出去宣传 要么会被重创” |
| [1:10:55] | Congress reads it, cuts our authorities, | 国会看了之后 会削弱我们的权力 |
| [1:10:58] | messes up our budget. | 削减我们的预算 |
| [1:10:59] | We need to make sure | 我们要确保 |
| [1:11:01] | the impression of what we do is positive.” | 人们对我们的所为印象是积极的” |
| [1:11:03] | This is the deputy chief of Counterterrorism. | 出自反恐中心副主任之口 |
| [1:11:06] | That all stays in. | 这些内容都保留 |
| [1:11:09] | We fundamentally disagree with the assertion | 我们坚决反对对于 |
| [1:11:11] | that the program was poorly managed and executed | 这个项目管理和执行不当 |
| [1:11:14] | and that unqualified officers imposed brutal conditions, | 以及不合格的职员施加残忍的条件 |
| [1:11:17] | used unapproved techniques, and were rarely held accountable. | 使用未经批准的技术并且很少受到追责的陈词 |
| [1:11:21] | What about Mitchell and Jessen? | 那米切尔和杰森呢 |
| [1:11:23] | Mitchell’s PhD thesis was on diet and exercise | 米切尔的博士论文写的是饮食和运动 |
| [1:11:26] | for controlling hypertension. | 和控制高血压的关系 |
| [1:11:28] | Jessen’s dissertation was on family therapy, | 杰森的学位论文是关于家庭疗法的 |
| [1:11:30] | something called family sculpting, | 叫什么家庭雕刻 |
| [1:11:32] | where you make clay figures of your family members. | 就是捏一堆代表家人的泥人 |
| [1:11:34] | – No. How much were they paid? – They had no experience | -他们拿了多少钱 -他们对于现实审讯 |
| [1:11:35] | in real-world interrogations. | 没有任何经验 |
| [1:11:36] | No science to back up their claims. | 他们的话没有任何科学依据 |
| [1:11:38] | They were allowed to assess | 他们还被允许 |
| [1:11:39] | the effectiveness of their own program | 丝毫没有科学依据地 |
| [1:11:41] | without providing any scientific evidence. | 评价他们自己项目的有效性 |
| [1:11:43] | How much in total | 美国纳税人 |
| [1:11:45] | did the U.S. Taxpayers give them for their work? | 一共给了他们多少钱 |
| [1:11:49] | Over $80 million. | 超过八千万美元 |
| [1:11:51] | The Agency also disagrees that | 局里还反对这个 |
| [1:11:54] | the Detention and Interrogation Program did not produce | 拘留和审讯项目没有产出 |
| [1:11:57] | unique intelligence that disrupted plots | 可以瓦解袭击计划和拯救性命的 |
| [1:12:00] | and saved lives. | 独特情报的说法 |
| [1:12:02] | For instance, the identity of José Padilla, | 例如 荷西·帕迪拉的身份 |
| [1:12:04] | the “Dirty bomber.” | “脏弹人” |
| [1:12:06] | If we hadn’t stopped Padilla, | 如果我们没有阻止帕迪拉 |
| [1:12:07] | this entire area would be radioactive today. | 现在这一整片区域可能还暴露在辐射里 |
| [1:12:11] | José Padilla! | 荷西·帕迪拉 |
| [1:12:12] | Padilla found the instructions for his dirty bomb online, | 帕迪拉是在网上找到做脏弹的教程的 |
| [1:12:16] | in-in an article entitled “Making and owning an H-bomb | 在一篇叫”制作和拥有一个氢弹 |
| [1:12:19] | is the kind of challenge real Americans seek.” | 是真正美国人寻求的挑战”的文章里 |
| [1:12:22] | It says, “Fill two buckets with uranium | 里面说”找到两桶铀 |
| [1:12:25] | and swing them above your head as fast as possible.” | 然后在头顶摇晃 越快越好” |
| [1:12:29] | It was a joke. | 那就是个笑话 |
| [1:12:30] | As far as we can tell, | 就现在看来 |
| [1:12:31] | everything they attribute to EITs they already had, | 他们声称来源于强化审讯技术的所有情报 |
| [1:12:34] | from other sources, from foreign governments, | 都是通过其他来源 其他国家 其他方法 |
| [1:12:36] | from other methods. | 已经得到的情报 |
| [1:12:38] | They claim they saved lives, but what they really did | 他们声称拯救了生命 |
| [1:12:40] | was make it impossible to prosecute | 但其实只是让人不能起诉 |
| [1:12:42] | a mass murderer like KSM, because if what we did to him | 像哈立德一样的刽子手 因为如果他们的 |
| [1:12:46] | ever came out in a court of law, the case is over. | 所作所为在法庭上暴露出来 这个案子就完了 |
| [1:12:49] | The guy planned 9/11, | 那家伙策划了911事件 |
| [1:12:51] | and instead of going to jail for the rest of his life, | 没有去蹲一辈子监狱 |
| [1:12:53] | the CIA turned him into a recruiting tool | 反而被中情局变成了我们还在打的 |
| [1:12:55] | for a war we’re still fighting. | 战争的征兵状 |
| [1:13:01] | Stop meeting with them. | 别再跟他们面谈了 |
| [1:13:10] | This is a remarkable document you’ve created. | 你编写的这个文件很出色 |
| [1:13:13] | Truly. | 真的 |
| [1:13:15] | It will provide an enduring history, | 它会成为永存的历史 |
| [1:13:18] | whether it comes out or not. | 无论它公布与否 |
| [1:13:27] | What does that mean, “W-whether it comes out or not”? | 什么意思 “无论它公布与否” |
| [1:13:28] | What does she mean? | 她什么意思 |
| [1:13:31] | What does that mean? | 什么意思 |
| [1:13:32] | We’ve been working on this thing for nearly five years. | 我们在这上面快花了五年了 |
| [1:13:34] | Yes, and it is still our word against theirs. | 是 但还是我们的一面之词 |
| [1:13:37] | She’s gonna need more than that. | 她需要的不止这些 |
| [1:13:57] | This is Jones. | 我是琼斯 |
| [1:13:58] | Hey, Dan, this is Evan Tanner. | 丹 我是埃文·坦纳 |
| [1:13:59] | I hear rumors the report might not be coming out now. | 我听到流言说报告可能不会公开了 |
| [1:14:03] | A lot of pushback from the Agency. | 中情局有很大的意见 |
| [1:14:05] | – They’re calling it “flawed.” – Who told you that? | -他们说”有瑕疵” -谁告诉你的 |
| [1:14:09] | Dan, I’m the national security reporter | 丹 我是《纽约时报》的 |
| [1:14:11] | for The New York Times. | 国家安全记者 |
| [1:14:12] | Do you have any thoughts? | 你有什么想法吗 |
| [1:14:16] | It’s not my place to talk about rumors. | 流言不是我该谈论的 |
| [1:14:18] | No, I didn’t think you would. | 不 我想你也不会 |
| [1:14:19] | I was wondering if you might want to comment. | 就是想问问你想不想作出评论 |
| [1:14:22] | It can be off the record. | 可以不公开身份 |
| [1:14:25] | I just think we can help each other here. | 我觉得我们能互相帮助 |
| [1:14:29] | You know I can’t do that. | 你知道我不能这么做 |
| [1:14:34] | And here’s what we know about Caroline Krass: | 关于卡洛琳·卡拉斯 我们了解的情况是 |
| [1:14:36] | 20 years in the executive branch, | 她在行政部门干了二十年 |
| [1:14:38] | including the Office of Legal Counsel | 包括了她在法律顾问办公室 |
| [1:14:40] | where she worked with John Yoo. | 和约翰·尤共事的日子 |
| [1:14:41] | Guys, this confirmation’s a done deal. | 各位 她的任职已经板上钉钉了 |
| [1:14:44] | We’re not gonna stop it. | 我们阻止不了 |
| [1:14:46] | But it is a public hearing, and it just seems like | 但是这是个公开听证会 我觉得 |
| [1:14:50] | there’s an opportunity to say something. | 有机会可以说点什么 |
| [1:14:53] | Wh-What are you looking for, Senator? | 你想说什么 参议员 |
| [1:14:55] | I don’t know, something to move the study forward, | 或许是可以推进这个调查 |
| [1:14:57] | to break us out of this stalemate. | 让我们打破僵局的东西 |
| [1:15:02] | Any ideas? | 有什么主意吗 |
| [1:15:09] | Senator, there is a document. | 参议员 有一份文件 |
| [1:15:32] | 帕涅塔审查报告 最高机密 敏感信息隔离 | |
| [1:15:50] | You ever sleep, bro? | 你睡过觉吗 兄弟 |
| [1:15:52] | I used to. | 我以前会睡 |
| [1:15:54] | Got in the way of work. | 后来妨碍工作了 |
| [1:15:55] | Anything in that bag contain the real names of CIA officers, | 包里有任何物品包含中情局职员 |
| [1:15:58] | assets or partners, or any information | 线人或合作伙伴的真名 |
| [1:16:01] | that would be in violation of the agreement between | 或任何会违反 |
| [1:16:03] | the Central Intelligence Agency and the United States Senate? | 中央情报局和美国参议院之间协议的信息吗 |
| [1:16:06] | – Have a good night, Jay. – You, too, Dan. | -晚安 杰伊 -你也是 丹 |
| [1:16:17] | 丹尼尔·J·琼斯 首席调查员 | |
| [1:17:01] | The committee will come to order. | 委员会会议正式开始 |
| [1:17:04] | Today, we are gathered for the confirmation hearing | 今天 我们来参加卡洛琳·卡拉斯 |
| [1:17:07] | of Caroline Krass to be general counsel of the CIA. | 担任中情局首席法律顾问的任职听证会 |
| [1:17:12] | Welcome, Ms. Krass. | 欢迎 卡拉斯女士 |
| [1:17:15] | I’m honored to be here before the committee, | 能来到委员会面前我很荣幸 |
| [1:17:17] | and I’d like to take this moment to acknowledge my family | 借此机会我想感谢我的家人 |
| [1:17:20] | and thank them for their support. | 谢谢他们的支持 |
| [1:17:22] | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| [1:17:24] | Before we begin, I would like to remind members | 开始之前 我想提醒大家 |
| [1:17:27] | not to discuss classified topics | 不要讨论机密的话题 |
| [1:17:29] | or ask questions which require a classified answer. | 或是提出需要机密答案的问题 |
| [1:17:33] | With that said, I turn to Senator Udall. | 说完这些 下面请尤德尔参议员发言 |
| [1:17:36] | Ms. Krass, nice to see you again. | 卡拉斯女士 很高兴又见到你了 |
| [1:17:38] | We had a chance to sit down last week | 我们上周有机会坐下来 |
| [1:17:40] | and discuss the Senate’s study | 谈谈参议院对于 |
| [1:17:41] | on the Detention and Interrogation Program. | 拘留和审讯项目的调查 |
| [1:17:44] | You told me you found the study to be hard reading. | 你跟我说觉得那个调查很晦涩 |
| [1:17:49] | Also, last week, a number of articles appeared | 同样是上周 出现了一些文章 |
| [1:17:51] | discussing the one-year anniversary | 讨论批准委员会这项调查的投票 |
| [1:17:53] | of the vote to approve the committee’s study. | 已经过去了一年的时间 |
| [1:17:56] | And in one of those articles, | 有一篇文章指出 |
| [1:17:57] | the CIA claimed to have found significant errors. | 中情局声称发现了重大错误 |
| [1:18:01] | Now, I got to tell you, I don’t believe that is accurate. | 我得告诉你 我认为这种说法不准确 |
| [1:18:05] | In fact, I’m more confident than ever | 事实上 我比任何时候都更确信 |
| [1:18:08] | in the factual accuracy of the committee’s study. | 委员会调查在事实上的准确性 |
| [1:18:12] | I want to say that again: I’m more confident than ever. | 我再重申一次 我比任何时候都更确信 |
| [1:18:17] | It appears that the CIA performed their own study of the EIT program, | 中情局对于强化审讯技术项目进行过自我审查 |
| [1:18:21] | initiated by former Director Panetta. | 是由前局长帕涅塔发起的 |
| [1:18:25] | And the findings in that review | 那份审查的发现 |
| [1:18:27] | are entirely consistent with our committee’s report, | 与我们委员会的报告完全一致 |
| [1:18:30] | but amazingly conflicts with | 但是令人惊讶的是 |
| [1:18:33] | the CIA’s official response to that report. | 跟中情局对报告的官方回应并不一致 |
| [1:18:38] | So, why is a review the CIA conducted internally, | 为什么一个中情局内部的 |
| [1:18:41] | and never revealed to Congress, | 从来没有提交国会的审查 |
| [1:18:44] | so different from the CIA’s formal response to the committee’s report? | 跟中情局对于这份报告的官方回应截然不同 |
| [1:18:49] | Do you have an answer for that? | 你能回答吗 |
| [1:18:55] | not at this time. | 现在不能 |
| [1:19:01] | If I wanted the public to know about the Panetta review, | 如果我想让公众知道帕涅塔审查 |
| [1:19:04] | I would have told them myself. | 我早就自己告诉他们了 |
| [1:19:06] | We hear that the Republicans | 我们听说共和党要 |
| [1:19:07] | are gonna censure Udall for that performance. | 严厉批评尤德尔的讲话 |
| [1:19:09] | But the review proves our point. | 但是审查证明了我们的观点 |
| [1:19:10] | They found the same things we did. | 他们跟我们的发现是一样的 |
| [1:19:12] | The Agency didn’t know how or where to hold people, | 中情局不知道如何或者在哪里拘人 |
| [1:19:14] | didn’t know how to interrogate people, | 也不知道怎么审讯人 |
| [1:19:16] | and, more importantly, the CIA did give it to us. | 但更重要的是 中情局确实把审查报告给我们了 |
| [1:19:19] | I don’t know if it was an accident | 我不知道是意外 |
| [1:19:21] | or it was a whistle-blower. | 还是有告密者 |
| [1:19:22] | Well, if it was a whistle-blower, | 如果有告密者 |
| [1:19:24] | you may have just exposed them. | 你刚刚就暴露他们了 |
| [1:19:26] | Not to mention yourself. | 更别说你自己了 |
| [1:20:26] | We got something here. | 有发现了 |
| [1:20:28] | The director has asked me here today | 局长要我今天以 |
| [1:20:30] | in my capacity as Agency legal counsel. | 中情局法律顾问的身份过来 |
| [1:20:32] | What we have to discuss has serious implications. | 我们讨论的话题会产生重大的影响 |
| [1:20:37] | All right. | 好吧 |
| [1:20:38] | We have proof that the staff | 我们有证据表明 |
| [1:20:40] | of the Senate Intelligence Committee | 参议院情报委员会的职员 |
| [1:20:41] | illegally gained access to the CIA’s computer network | 非法入侵了中情局的电脑网络 |
| [1:20:44] | and obtained classified documents. | 并获取了机密文件 |
| [1:20:47] | What kind of proof? | 什么样的证据 |
| [1:20:48] | We found the document in question | 我们在丹尼尔·琼斯的电脑中 |
| [1:20:50] | on Daniel Jones’s computer. | 发现了这一机密文件 |
| [1:20:52] | We did not provide it to him or to the committee. | 我们并未将其提供给他或委员会 |
| [1:20:55] | If he didn’t hack us, how did it get there? | 如果他没有入侵我们的系统 他是怎么取得的 |
| [1:20:59] | We feel that Jones and his team need to be disciplined. | 我们认为琼斯和他的团队应该受到处分 |
| [1:21:04] | Immediate dismissal is in order, | 应该把他们立即开除 |
| [1:21:07] | at a minimum, I would think. | 我认为至少应该如此 |
| [1:21:10] | John, are you saying that you broke into the computer system | 约翰 你是说你入侵了美国参议院的 |
| [1:21:15] | of the United States Senate? | 电脑系统吗 |
| [1:21:16] | We never gave you clearance on that document. | 我们没给过你们那份文件的权限 |
| [1:21:18] | It was classified, yet you chose to make it public. | 那是机密文件 你们却选择将其公开 |
| [1:21:22] | We’ve made our investigation and our findings | 我们已经把我们的调查及其结果 |
| [1:21:23] | known to the White House. | 通知了白宫 |
| [1:21:26] | You’re fucking kidding me. | 你在逗我吧 |
| [1:21:29] | They’re saying I broke into | 他们说我入侵了 |
| [1:21:31] | the most top secret computer system in the world? | 世界上最为机密的电脑系统 |
| [1:21:33] | – Brennan and Eastman came over… – Eastman? | -布伦南和伊斯曼来了 -伊斯曼 |
| [1:21:35] | Eastman’s name is in the report over a thousand times. | 伊斯曼的名字在报告里出现了无数次 |
| [1:21:38] | – That’s not a conflict? – Dan. | -他不应该回避吗 -丹 |
| [1:21:40] | They filed a criminal referral against you. | 他们对你发起了刑事转介 |
| [1:21:44] | They want you gone. | 他们想让你不再掺和这事 |
| [1:21:48] | H-How did the Agency come to the conclusion that I’m a hacker? | 中情局怎么会认为我入侵了他们的系统 |
| [1:21:53] | H-How do they even know what’s on my computer? | 他们是怎么知道我的电脑里有什么的 |
| [1:21:54] | They say they conducted a search. | 他们说他们进行了搜查 |
| [1:21:56] | Of the United States Senate? | 搜查美国参议院 |
| [1:21:58] | The whole reason this committee was established in the first place | 这个委员会建立的初衷就在于 |
| [1:22:00] | was to stop the CIA from spying on U.S. Citizens. | 阻止中情局监视美国公民 |
| [1:22:03] | The senator is talking to Harry Reid about | 参议员正在和哈里·里德 |
| [1:22:04] | – that very thing… – Did they go into that room? | -讨论这件事… -他们进那个房间了吗 |
| [1:22:06] | That room is off-limits. Did they go into that fucking room? | 那个房间是禁止进入的 他们进去了吗 |
| [1:22:08] | I don’t know. | 我不知道 |
| [1:22:11] | I don’t know. | 我不知道 |
| [1:22:15] | I do know that the Republicans are gonna run with this. | 但我知道共和党会支持他们 |
| [1:22:18] | They’re gonna use it to discredit the report. | 他们会利用这件事来诋毁这份报告 |
| [1:22:19] | They’re gonna use it to discredit you. | 他们会利用这件事来诋毁你 |
| [1:22:24] | Dan, they’re accusing you of breaking the law. | 丹 他们要指控你违反法律 |
| [1:22:26] | You’re gonna need a lawyer. | 你得去请个律师 |
| [1:22:33] | There’s a saying at the Agency: | 中情局里流传着一句话 |
| [1:22:35] | “Admit nothing, | “什么都不承认 |
| [1:22:36] | deny everything, make counteraccusations.” | 什么都否认 提出反诉” |
| [1:22:38] | That’s what they’re doing. | 他们现在正是这么做的 |
| [1:22:41] | The CIA is investigating you for… | 中情局正在调查你… |
| [1:22:43] | They’re the ones who should be investigated, not me. | 应该被调查的是他们 而不是我 |
| [1:22:45] | Mr. Jones? Mr. Clifford will see you now. | 琼斯先生 克利福德现在可以见你了 |
| [1:22:48] | Our computer system | 我们的电脑系统 |
| [1:22:49] | isn’t even connected to the CIA mainframe. | 甚至都没连接中情局的主机 |
| [1:22:52] | So did I just go over to Langley | 我难道是周末跑到中情局总部 |
| [1:22:53] | and break in on a weekend? | 入侵了他们的系统吗 |
| [1:22:55] | Seems unlikely. | 似乎是天方夜谭 |
| [1:22:57] | So what evidence do they have? | 他们手上有什么证据 |
| [1:23:00] | A document. | 一份文件 |
| [1:23:02] | A document? What kind of a document? | 一份文件 什么样的文件 |
| [1:23:07] | I can’t tell you that. | 我不能告诉你 |
| [1:23:09] | Because, what, it’s classified? | 因为是机密吗 |
| [1:23:12] | I was tasked to lead an investigation | 我被指派领导一项调查 |
| [1:23:14] | into a CIA program they started after 9/11, | 调查中情局于911事件后启动的一个项目 |
| [1:23:17] | what they called enhanced interrogation. | 他们将其称为强化审讯 |
| [1:23:19] | And I assume your work is critical of the Agency? | 我猜你的调查结果对中情局有所批判 |
| [1:23:26] | You know, Dan, a lot of people in this country | 丹 这个国家有很多人 |
| [1:23:27] | felt the CIA was justified in doing | 认为中情局为了保护他们 |
| [1:23:29] | whatever they had to do to keep us safe. | 而所做的一切都是正当的 |
| [1:23:32] | I have friends who lost people that day. | 我有些朋友在那天失去了他们的亲人朋友 |
| [1:23:34] | And a lot of people watch 24 on Thursday nights | 还有很多人在周四晚上看《24小时》 |
| [1:23:36] | and hear Jack Bauer say, | 听杰克·鲍尔说 |
| [1:23:38] | “I don’t want to bypass the Constitution, | “我不想违反宪法 |
| [1:23:39] | but these are extraordinary circumstances,” | 但现在是非常时期” |
| [1:23:41] | just before, you know, he sticks a knife in them | 他说完这话就用刀捅他们 |
| [1:23:44] | and makes them give up a plot. | 逼他们说出阴谋 |
| [1:23:45] | It-it doesn’t work that way. | 这样是行不通的 |
| [1:23:48] | Well, as Winston Churchill said, | 温斯顿·丘吉尔说过 |
| [1:23:52] | “History is written by the victors.” | “历史是由胜利者书写的” |
| [1:23:57] | Churchill didn’t really say that; Hermann Goring did. | 其实不是丘吉尔说的 是赫尔曼·戈林说的 |
| [1:23:59] | And what he said was, “We will go down in history | 他的原话是”我们在历史上留下的形象 |
| [1:24:02] | either as the world’s greatest statesmen | 要么是世界上最伟大的政治家 |
| [1:24:03] | or its worst villains.” | 要么是最坏的恶人” |
| [1:24:05] | So your report is gonna determine that: | 所以你的报告将会决定 |
| [1:24:08] | statesmen or villains? | 是政治家还是恶人 |
| [1:24:15] | How long have you been working on this project, Dan? | 你进行这项调查有多久了 丹 |
| [1:24:18] | Five years. | 五年 |
| [1:24:20] | Five years, and it could all go away, | 五年 一切成果都可能化为乌有 |
| [1:24:23] | just vanish in the face of these allegations. | 因为这些指控而烟消云散 |
| [1:24:26] | I can certainly imagine | 我完全能想象 |
| [1:24:28] | an ambitious young man like yourself spends years | 像你这样雄心勃勃的年轻人花费数年的时间 |
| [1:24:30] | with his head buried in some terrible spectacle, | 埋头于调查一些可怕的场面 |
| [1:24:34] | gets frustrated with the process, | 对调查过程感到沮丧 |
| [1:24:36] | sees an opportunity to get the truth out faster, | 遇到一个能更快传出真相的机会 |
| [1:24:39] | maybe crosses a line. | 也许会选择越界 |
| [1:24:40] | I’m assuming this is the most important thing | 我猜这是你参与过的 |
| [1:24:42] | – you’ve ever been a part of. – I didn’t do it. | -最重要的事情 -我没做 |
| [1:24:43] | Or I can see an equally ambitious senator | 又或是一位同样雄心勃勃的参议员 |
| [1:24:45] | encouraging you to do something. | 鼓励你去做点什么 |
| [1:24:46] | Now would be a good time to tell me. | 现在是告诉我的好机会 |
| [1:24:48] | That did not happen. | 不是那样的 |
| [1:24:49] | What I did, I did on my own. I acted alone. | 我的所作所为是个人行为 我独自行动 |
| [1:24:52] | – So you did steal the document? – I did not steal it. | -你确实偷了文件 -我没偷 |
| [1:24:53] | – You needed it to… – I relocated it. | -你需要用它来… -我转移了它 |
| [1:24:55] | I put it in a safe. | 我把它放进了保险柜 |
| [1:24:56] | If they had a way of destroying tapes, | 如果他们有办法销毁录像带 |
| [1:24:57] | – then surely they could get… – Everyone has their own words. | -那他们肯定能… -每个人都各执一词 |
| [1:24:59] | The language is built to choose sides. | 语言是用来选择立场的 |
| [1:25:01] | Now, why did you relocate it? | 你为什么要转移它 |
| [1:25:08] | Documents had a way of disappearing off the server. | 文件总有办法从服务器上消失 |
| [1:25:11] | For instance, in 2010, over 800 documents | 例如 在2010年 超过八百份文件 |
| [1:25:14] | just vanished without any explanation. | 在没有任何解释的情况下消失了 |
| [1:25:17] | So you had computer issues all along. | 所以一直以来都存在电脑问题 |
| [1:25:21] | Who else knew what was on the computers? | 还有谁知道电脑上有什么 |
| [1:25:23] | Well, the CIA hired an outside firm to vet the documents: | 中情局雇用外部公司来审查文件 |
| [1:25:26] | Centra. | 中心公司 |
| [1:25:27] | And CACI was also involved. | CACI国际公司也参与其中 |
| [1:25:29] | – Who are they? – Contractors. | -他们是什么来头 -承包商 |
| [1:25:31] | But Jim Pavitt is on their board. | 但吉姆·帕维特是他们的董事会成员 |
| [1:25:34] | Former deputy director of operations for the CIA, | 他是前中情局行动副局长 |
| [1:25:37] | Jim Pavitt, during the program, Jim Pavitt. | 吉姆·帕维特 在项目期间也是他 |
| [1:25:40] | And is he named in the report? | 报告提及了他的名字吗 |
| [1:25:43] | Can’t tell me. | 不能告诉我 |
| [1:25:46] | So they can’t destroy the document. | 所以他们不能销毁文件 |
| [1:25:48] | Then they can go after the next best thing: you. | 于是他们选择其次的办法 针对你 |
| [1:25:52] | Make you a zealot. | 把你说成狂热分子 |
| [1:25:54] | Anything you touch is tainted. | 你触及过的东西都被玷污了 |
| [1:25:57] | I could see the Agency saying that | 可想而知 中情局会声称 |
| [1:25:59] | this is a violation of the Espionage Act, | 你违反了反间谍法 |
| [1:26:01] | the… Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, | 计算机欺诈与滥用法 |
| [1:26:04] | who knows what else. | 谁知道还有些什么 |
| [1:26:07] | And if they file a charge against me, | 如果他们指控我 |
| [1:26:08] | how long could I go away for? | 我会被判多少年 |
| [1:26:11] | I don’t know. 20 years, maybe more. | 说不好 二十年 或许还不止 |
| [1:26:24] | I did not hack into the CIA computer system. | 我没有入侵中情局的电脑系统 |
| [1:26:29] | I mean, my com… my computer skills stop at Microsoft Word. | 我的电脑水平停留在使用Word文档 |
| [1:26:33] | They probably know that. | 他们可能清楚这一点 |
| [1:26:36] | Let me ask you something: | 我问你个问题 |
| [1:26:36] | How much does a Senate staffer make? | 参议院职员能挣多少钱 |
| [1:26:39] | At my level? About-about a hundred grand. | 我这个级别的话 大约能挣十万 |
| [1:26:41] | Any retirement, savings, family money? | 你有退休金 存款 或者家族财产吗 |
| [1:26:43] | No. | 没有 |
| [1:26:46] | So, we should discuss my retainer. | 那我们得谈谈我的预付费用 |
| [1:26:48] | – How much is that? – $30,000 to start. | -多少钱 -三万起 |
| [1:26:51] | And if it goes to trial, add a zero. | 如果进入庭审阶段 后面得再一个零 |
| [1:26:55] | Nothing could make them happier | 知道你坐在这和我谈话 |
| [1:26:57] | than knowing you’re sitting here talking to me. | 他们再开心不过了 |
| [1:26:59] | That’s what they want, Dan. | 你正中他们下怀 丹 |
| [1:27:01] | Make you bleed money all over my floor. | 把你的钱都花在我身上 |
| [1:27:05] | Do you want my expert opinion, for free? | 你想要我的专业意见吗 不收费 |
| [1:27:08] | You don’t really have a legal problem. | 你面临的其实不是法律问题 |
| [1:27:11] | You have a sunlight problem. | 你面临的是曝光度问题 |
| [1:27:15] | I’m sure you know people who can help you solve it. | 我相信你认识能帮你解决这个问题的人 |
| [1:27:31] | Daniel Jones. | 丹尼尔·琼斯 |
| [1:27:33] | I didn’t think you’d ever return my calls. | 我没想过你会回电 |
| [1:27:35] | Does your boss know you’re talking to a guy | 你的上级知道 |
| [1:27:36] | with a byline and a tape recorder? | 你和报社记者谈话吗 |
| [1:27:37] | There’s something going on I think you should look into. | 我认为你应该调查一件事 |
| [1:27:40] | It involves the Agency. | 涉及到中情局 |
| [1:27:43] | Okay. Is it that report you’ve been working on, | 好吧 是关于你正在编写 |
| [1:27:46] | the one that never quite comes out? | 没有公布过的那份报告吗 |
| [1:27:47] | Computers. It has to do with the hacking of computers. | 电脑 跟入侵电脑有关 |
| [1:27:51] | All right, whose? | 好吧 谁的电脑 |
| [1:27:54] | The United States Senate. | 美国参议院 |
| [1:27:57] | Someone hacked into the Senate? | 有人入侵了美国参议院的电脑 |
| [1:28:01] | No shit? Okay. | 不会吧 好吧 |
| [1:28:03] | You have any idea if it was foreign or domestic? | 你知道是外国还是国内的人干的吗 |
| [1:28:06] | All right, yes, you… | 好吧 明白 你… |
| [1:28:08] | sorry, you said it was the Agency. | 抱歉 你刚刚提到中情局 |
| [1:28:09] | So what-what does the CIA have to do with U.S. Senate computers? | 中情局和参议院的电脑有什么关系 |
| [1:28:13] | Evan, you’re the national security reporter for The New York Times. | 埃文 你是《纽约时报》的国家安全记者 |
| [1:28:15] | You can figure it out. All right? | 你自己去查 好吗 |
| [1:28:24] | Morning, Senator. | 早上好 参议员 |
| [1:28:25] | You wanted to see me? | 你找我吗 |
| [1:28:27] | You know anything about this? | 你知道这件事吗 |
| [1:28:29] | “Computer Searches at Center of Dispute on CIA Detentions.” | “中情局拘留项目纷争中的电脑搜查” |
| [1:28:33] | You have any idea how that ended up in The New York Times? | 你知道这是怎么出现在《纽约时报》上的吗 |
| [1:28:36] | Yeah, I saw that. It looks accurate. | 我看到这篇报道了 很准确 |
| [1:28:38] | Senator McCain is already calling the CIA a rogue agency. | 麦凯恩参议员已经开始把中情局称为流氓机构 |
| [1:28:41] | What are your thoughts on someone like Edward Snowden, Dan? | 你对爱德华·斯诺登这样的人有什么看法吗 丹 |
| [1:28:46] | Well, Senator, I know how you feel about leaks. | 参议员 我知道你对于泄密的看法 |
| [1:28:48] | I think he’s a traitor, plain and simple. | 我认为他是个卖国贼 简单明了 |
| [1:28:51] | It’s my job to provide oversight | 我的职责是 |
| [1:28:53] | with the tools of governance, | 用治理工具进行监督 |
| [1:28:54] | not lights and cameras and headlines. | 而不是用媒体这一套 |
| [1:29:01] | Do you want me to resign? | 你希望我辞职吗 |
| [1:29:07] | No. | 不 |
| [1:29:09] | But I think I might need you to write me a speech. | 但我需要你帮我写一篇演讲稿 |
| [1:29:16] | Senator Feinstein claimed today on the Senate floor | 范斯坦参议员今天在参议院发表讲话称 |
| [1:29:20] | that the CIA hacked the Senate Intelligence Committee’s computers | 中情局入侵了参议院情报委员会的电脑 |
| [1:29:23] | to thwart an investigation into past practices. | 以阻挠一项对于过去行为的调查 |
| [1:29:26] | Can you respond to that? | 你能进行回应吗 |
| [1:29:27] | Well, first, we in no way, shape or form | 首先 我们绝对不会 |
| [1:29:31] | tried to thwart the release of the report. | 试图阻挠调查报告的公布 |
| [1:29:35] | We want that behind us. | 我们希望了结这件事 |
| [1:29:37] | As far as this allegation that | 至于这起指控称 |
| [1:29:38] | the CIA somehow hacked into the Senate computer system, | 中情局入侵了参议院的电脑系统 |
| [1:29:44] | nothing could be further from the truth. | 这与事实完全不符 |
| [1:29:46] | We just wouldn’t do that. | 我们绝不会那么做 |
| [1:29:49] | It’s beyond the scope of reason. | 这完全不合理 |
| [1:30:01] | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| [1:30:03] | I understand your position, Senator, | 我理解你的立场 参议员 |
| [1:30:05] | and I am aware of Director Brennan’s comments. | 我也了解了布伦南局长的回应 |
| [1:30:07] | Did you hear what Lindsey Graham said this morning, | 你听说了林赛·格雷厄姆今天早上 |
| [1:30:09] | about the Agency breaking into our computers? | 对于中情局入侵我们的电脑系统的评论吗 |
| [1:30:13] | “The legislative branch should declare war on the CIA. | “立法部门应该对中情局宣战 |
| [1:30:16] | Heads should roll, people should go to jail.” | 有人应该被开除 有人应该去坐牢” |
| [1:30:20] | Is that what you want? Send people to jail? | 这就是你想要的吗 让人坐牢 |
| [1:30:23] | We do have jails for a reason. | 监狱的存在是有原因的 |
| [1:30:26] | The Justice Department investigated the CIA, | 司法部调查了中情局 |
| [1:30:28] | and they decided not to prosecute. | 然后决定不起诉 |
| [1:30:30] | It’s their call, not ours. | 这是他们的决定 不是我们的 |
| [1:30:33] | Now, when this administration took office, | 这届政府上台时 |
| [1:30:34] | we faced the very real possibility of economic collapse. | 面临着经济崩溃的极大风险 |
| [1:30:39] | We had a decision to make: | 我们得做出抉择 |
| [1:30:40] | Do we spend our political capital on going around | 要将政治资本消耗在 |
| [1:30:43] | trying to find people to blame, or do we solve the problem? | 追究责任人 还是解决问题 |
| [1:30:45] | Maybe the way to solve the problem | 也许解决问题的办法 |
| [1:30:47] | is to hold people accountable. | 就是追究责任人 |
| [1:30:49] | Do you ever wonder why history repeats itself? | 你有想过历史为何会重演吗 |
| [1:30:52] | Well, I think maybe it’s because | 我认为也许是因为 |
| [1:30:54] | we don’t always listen the first time. | 我们有时不会吸取以往的教训 |
| [1:30:55] | Senator, the people at the Agency… they have families. | 参议员 中情局的人 他们有家室 |
| [1:30:59] | There are children who might lose a parent. | 他们的孩子可能会失去父母 |
| [1:31:04] | Years ago, some radical group put a bomb in the flower box | 几年前 某个极端组织在我女儿卧室窗外的 |
| [1:31:09] | outside of my daughter’s bedroom window, right out here. | 花箱里放了炸弹 就在这外面 |
| [1:31:12] | Had it been any warmer out, it would have exploded. | 天气要是再暖和一些 可能就爆炸了 |
| [1:31:15] | And then there was the time | 还有一次 |
| [1:31:16] | that I found Harvey Milk shot to death in his office. | 我发现哈维·米尔克被枪杀于自己的办公室 |
| [1:31:21] | I-I think I’m aware of the risks of public service. | 我很清楚从事公共服务的风险 |
| [1:31:25] | President Obama ended the torture program | 奥巴马总统上任三天后 |
| [1:31:27] | three days after taking office. | 就关停了酷刑项目 |
| [1:31:30] | The EITs, what the CIA did… that is not our mess. | 中情局搞的强化审讯技术 不是我们的烂摊子 |
| [1:31:34] | No, it’s not, | 对 不是 |
| [1:31:36] | but that’s not the question we’re asking, is it? | 但这不是我们要问的问题 不是吗 |
| [1:31:39] | The question we’re asking is: Who is going to clean it up? | 我们要问的问题是 谁来收拾这个烂摊子 |
| [1:31:44] | So let’s do that. | 我们来收拾 |
| [1:31:46] | Right after Director Brennan apologizes to me and my staff. | 不过得先让布伦南局长向我和我的职员道歉 |
| [1:31:52] | The Inspector General is here. | 特别监察长来了 |
| [1:31:54] | Go ahead in. | 进去吧 |
| [1:31:55] | In regards to the CIA search of Senate computers, | 至于中情局搜查参议院电脑一事 |
| [1:31:59] | we’ve looked into the matter | 我们进行了调查 |
| [1:32:01] | and have recommended that the Department of Justice | 并建议司法部 |
| [1:32:05] | begin a criminal investigation. | 开启刑事调查 |
| [1:32:07] | Good. | 很好 |
| [1:32:08] | So have we. | 我们也是 |
| [1:32:10] | Dan Jones, lead Senate investigator. | 丹·琼斯 参议院首席调查员 |
| [1:32:12] | Not the Senate staff. | 我说的不是参议院职员 |
| [1:32:14] | The CIA. | 是中情局 |
| [1:32:16] | Us? | 我们 |
| [1:32:18] | Are-are you accusing me or my staff of breaking the law? | 你要控告我或我的职员违反法律吗 |
| [1:32:21] | My understanding is that five CIA employees | 我的理解是五名中情局职员 |
| [1:32:24] | entered a room that was off-limits. | 进入了不允许进入的房间 |
| [1:32:27] | On whose orders? | 是谁下的命令 |
| [1:32:28] | Senator Feinstein is right to call | 范斯坦参议员说得对 |
| [1:32:30] | this a violation of the separation of powers. | 这违背了三权分立的原则 |
| [1:32:33] | The CIA cannot spy on the U.S. Congress. | 中情局不能监视参议院 |
| [1:32:40] | As inspector general, I’m gonna have to launch | 作为特别监察长 我要针对中情局的行为 |
| [1:32:42] | a full investigation into the Agency’s actions. | 发起一项全面调查 |
| [1:33:06] | Am I going to jail? | 我要去坐牢了吗 |
| [1:33:07] | No, they’re dropping the charges. | 不 他们撤销了指控 |
| [1:33:09] | You’re going back to work. | 你要继续编写报告 |
| [1:33:11] | Take the most important findings, finish the summary… | 选出最重要的调查结果 完成总结 |
| [1:33:14] | no more than 400 pages. | 不能超过四百页 |
| [1:33:16] | I’m going to ask the committee to vote to release it. | 我要去让委员会投票表决将其公布 |
| [1:33:26] | So, you saw they voted. | 你也看到他们投票的结果了 |
| [1:33:28] | 11 to three. | 十一比三 |
| [1:33:29] | They want to release an executive summary. | 他们想公布一份概要 |
| [1:33:31] | That thing goes out, it puts my people in danger, | 如果公布出去 我的人会有危险 |
| [1:33:34] | who are out there in a dangerous world today, | 那些现在身处危险境地的 |
| [1:33:37] | trying to do their jobs. | 履行职责的人 |
| [1:33:38] | Pulls the rug out from under them. | 情况将对他们很不利 |
| [1:33:40] | Anything that you feel puts your people in harm’s way | 任何你认为会危害到你的人的事情 |
| [1:33:43] | stays classified. | 都将继续保密 |
| [1:33:44] | My concern is this: | 我担心的是 |
| [1:33:45] | If-if the Senate puts out a small pile of pages | 如果参议院公布一部分报告 |
| [1:33:48] | and the press goes nuts, | 媒体就会为之疯狂 |
| [1:33:49] | then everybody’s gonna want to see a bigger pile of pages. | 然后每个人都想看到更多的报告 |
| [1:33:52] | You keep saying the president wants to turn the page. | 你一直说总统想让这件事翻篇 |
| [1:33:54] | Well, then turn the page. | 那就赶紧翻篇 |
| [1:33:57] | Close the damn book. | 了结这件事 |
| [1:34:05] | Senator Feinstein has asked the White House | 范斯坦参议员要求白宫 |
| [1:34:07] | to head up final comments and redactions. | 负责最终的评论和编写 |
| [1:34:10] | She wants us right in the middle of it. | 她想把我们拉下水 |
| [1:34:14] | And? | 然后呢 |
| [1:34:15] | And I think that’s exactly where you want us. | 然后我认为这正是你所希望的 |
| [1:34:19] | You’ll have the pen. | 你可以涂黑不想公布的部分 |
| [1:34:24] | Leadership specified | 领导层指示 |
| [1:34:25] | that we should redact anything that could result in | 我们可以删去任何可能会导致 |
| [1:34:26] | legal exposure for officers in the field, | 外勤职员面临法律风险的内容 |
| [1:34:29] | past or present. | 无论是过去还是现在 |
| [1:34:31] | Basically, if there’s any questions, black it out. | 基本上 只要存在疑问 就涂黑 |
| [1:34:41] | You see this? | 你看到这个了吗 |
| [1:34:51] | What the… | 搞什… |
| [1:34:53] | fuck is this? | 这是在搞什么 |
| [1:34:58] | Good afternoon. Where’s Marcy? | 下午好 玛茜人呢 |
| [1:34:59] | Conference room. | 在会议室 |
| [1:35:00] | Early the next week. | 下周初 |
| [1:35:02] | Wednesday. | 周三 |
| [1:35:05] | Yeah, that’ll work. | 嗯 可以 |
| [1:35:06] | And you get me the agenda. Thank you. | 把议事日程给我 谢谢 |
| [1:35:11] | Imagine you pick up a book, | 想象一下你拿起一本书 |
| [1:35:13] | and “Blank” turns water into wine on page 237, | 在第237页”空白”化水为酒 |
| [1:35:16] | and on page 71 “Blank” Heals a leper, | 在第71页”空白”治愈了一个麻风病人 |
| [1:35:19] | and on page 295 “Blank” rises from the dead. | 在第295页”空白”死而复生 |
| [1:35:23] | How do you know the blanks are all the same person? | 要怎么才知道这些空白都是同一个人 |
| [1:35:25] | I thought that the CIA agreed to using pseudonyms. | 中情局不是同意使用化名吗 |
| [1:35:28] | They did, but now even the fake names are gone. | 是的 但现在连化名都被涂黑了 |
| [1:35:31] | And the dates. | 还有日期 |
| [1:35:35] | The entire story is gone. | 整个事件都被涂黑了 |
| [1:35:45] | I hope you took your strong pills today. | 我希望你今天能强势一点 |
| [1:35:49] | Isn’t it enough to know what actually happened? | 知道事情的经过还不够吗 |
| [1:35:51] | Do we need to know the names of the people involved? | 我们需要知道参与者的名字吗 |
| [1:35:53] | But the actual names aren’t in the report. | 但参与者的真名并未出现在报告中 |
| [1:35:56] | Someone could figure out who our people are | 有人能根据他们的化名 |
| [1:35:57] | based on their pseudonyms. | 猜出他们是谁 |
| [1:35:59] | You know, I found a photo of my husband | 我在网上看到了一张我丈夫的照片 |
| [1:36:01] | on the Internet linking him to me. | 表明了我和他的关系 |
| [1:36:03] | Secrecy is very hard to maintain. | 秘密是很难保守的 |
| [1:36:04] | I believe you introduced your husband publicly | 我记得你在你的任命听证会上 |
| [1:36:06] | at your confirmation hearing. | 公开介绍了你的丈夫 |
| [1:36:07] | It was on C-SPAN. | 上了公共事务频道 |
| [1:36:09] | Some of these people… they are out there in the world, right now. | 其中的一些参与者正在外执行任务 |
| [1:36:12] | Yes, they are. | 是的 没错 |
| [1:36:13] | There’s an officer from Alec Station | 亚历克站的一位职员 |
| [1:36:15] | mentioned 41 times in 500 pages. | 在五百页的文件里被提及了41次 |
| [1:36:17] | In 1998, her team missed the bombing | 1998年 她的团队未能阻止 |
| [1:36:19] | of the U.S. Embassy in Kenya and Tanzania. | 美国驻肯尼亚和坦桑尼亚大使馆的炸弹袭击 |
| [1:36:22] | 1999, they missed the bombing | 1999年 他们未能阻止 |
| [1:36:23] | of the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad. | 伊斯兰堡万豪酒店的炸弹袭击 |
| [1:36:25] | In 2000, she was made aware of two Al Qaeda operatives | 2000年 她被告知有两个基地组织成员 |
| [1:36:28] | who arrived in Los Angeles. | 抵达了洛杉矶 |
| [1:36:30] | FBI officers, working within the bin Laden unit, | 在本·拉登小组工作的联调局探员 |
| [1:36:32] | requested permission to investigate. | 请求进行调查的许可 |
| [1:36:34] | That’s not how we want to play it. | 我们不打算这么做 |
| [1:36:36] | The CIA knew they were on American soil | 中情局知道他们来了美国 |
| [1:36:38] | and didn’t do anything. | 却毫无作为 |
| [1:36:40] | Al-Mihdhar then left the States | 阿米达接着离开了美国 |
| [1:36:41] | to play a key role in the bombing of the USS Cole, | 在科尔号袭击事件中扮演了关键角色 |
| [1:36:44] | before returning to hijack Flight 77 with al-Hazmi | 之后他回到美国和哈兹米一起劫持了77号航班 |
| [1:36:47] | and crash into the Pentagon. | 撞进了五角大楼 |
| [1:36:48] | And you want to protect this person’s identity. | 你想保护这个人的身份 |
| [1:36:51] | We’d also like to redact the pseudonyms of the contractors. | 我们还想删去承包商的化名 |
| [1:36:54] | Dr. Mitchell was already quoted by name in The New Yorker. | 米切尔博士的名字已经登上《纽约时报》了 |
| [1:36:58] | He was handing out brochures at professional conferences | 他还在专业会议上分发手册 |
| [1:37:00] | telling people he worked for the CIA. | 告诉别人他为中情局工作 |
| [1:37:02] | If we are protecting the identities of CIA staff, | 如果我们要保护中情局职员的身份 |
| [1:37:05] | we need to protect our contractors as well. | 我们同样需要保护我们的承包商 |
| [1:37:08] | Mitchell and Jessen were given a contract by the Agency | 米切尔和杰森承包的是 |
| [1:37:10] | for a program that didn’t work. | 中情局一个无效的项目 |
| [1:37:12] | The CIA also agreed to a five million dollar | 中情局还和他们的公司 |
| [1:37:14] | indemnification clause for their company that covered, | 签订了一个五百万的保障条款 |
| [1:37:16] | among other expenses, criminal prosecution. | 除了其他费用外 还用以支付刑事起诉的费用 |
| [1:37:20] | You know, I kept the rag we used on KSM. | 我把用在哈立德身上的碎布留下来了 |
| [1:37:24] | You should eBay that bad boy when this is all over. | 风波过去后你应该把那玩意挂网上卖了 |
| [1:37:27] | Make a mint. | 赚一大笔钱 |
| [1:37:30] | An internal CIA memo concluded | 中情局的一份内部备忘录得出结论 |
| [1:37:32] | that Mitchell and Jessen “have both shown blatant disregard | 称米切尔和杰森”对于几乎所有同事都持有的 |
| [1:37:35] | for the ethics shared by almost all of their colleagues.” | 道德伦理展现出明目张胆的漠视” |
| [1:37:38] | The pseudonyms for the contractors need to stay. | 承包商的化名必须保留 |
| [1:37:43] | Guys, we’ve been at this for months. | 各位 这件事我们已经商量几个月了 |
| [1:37:45] | What about the locations of the black sites? | 黑狱的地点呢 |
| [1:37:46] | The country names? | 国名呢 |
| [1:37:47] | We made commitments to those countries to maintain their secrecy. | 我们向那些国家承诺过替他们保密 |
| [1:37:51] | No country names. | 不能出现国名 |
| [1:37:52] | Not open to negotiating these points. | 这几点是不容谈判的 |
| [1:37:54] | We need to consider the morale of the CIA here. | 我们得考虑到中情局的士气 |
| [1:37:56] | Now, we-we publish this report, | 我们如果公布了这份报告 |
| [1:37:58] | – there’s a very good chance we could lose them. – Lose them? | -很有可能我们将失去他们 -失去他们 |
| [1:38:00] | What does that mean? | 什么意思 |
| [1:38:01] | What about the morale of all the people at the Agency | 那中情局里那些站出来反对这个项目的 |
| [1:38:03] | who spoke out against the program? | 那些人的士气呢 |
| [1:38:05] | What about them? | 他们呢 |
| [1:38:06] | People who sent cables back from black sites | 他们从黑狱发回电报 |
| [1:38:09] | saying they wanted to be transferred | 说自己想被调离 |
| [1:38:10] | because they were disgusted by what was being done. | 因为他们对那里正在发生的事情感到厌恶 |
| [1:38:12] | All right, look. | 好了 听着 |
| [1:38:13] | We have… Dan more than anyone… | 正是丹替我们 |
| [1:38:16] | have worked to uncover the truth about this | 在没人愿意的情况下 |
| [1:38:18] | when no one else would. | 揭开了这件事的真相 |
| [1:38:19] | We will not allow this to be covered up | 我们不会允许行政部门 |
| [1:38:21] | by the executive branch. | 掩盖这件事 |
| [1:38:23] | President Obama called it torture. | 奥巴马总统将其称为酷刑 |
| [1:38:24] | Bush and Cheney wouldn’t do that. | 布什和切尼才不会这么做 |
| [1:38:26] | He signed an executive order getting rid of it. | 他签署了行政命令来中止这个项目 |
| [1:38:30] | Now, just imagine, God forbid, | 好好想想 万一不幸 |
| [1:38:31] | there’s another terrorist attack on our watch. | 在我们的任上又出现恐怖袭击 |
| [1:38:34] | There won’t be another Democrat | 此后二十年都不会再有 |
| [1:38:36] | in the White House for 20 years. | 民主党人入主白宫 |
| [1:38:38] | I’d also like to talk about the redactions concerning KSM. | 我还想谈谈哈立德部分的删减 |
| [1:38:42] | Cory Gardner, the Republican challenger, | 科里·加德纳 来自共和党的挑战者 |
| [1:38:45] | will be the next United States senator | 将成为下一任来自 |
| [1:38:46] | from the state of Colorado, | 科罗拉多州的参议员 |
| [1:38:48] | defeating the Democratic incumbent, Mark Udall. | 他击败了现任民主党参议员马克·尤德尔 |
| [1:38:51] | A major, major win for the Republicans. | 这是共和党的一场重大胜利 |
| [1:38:54] | Chris Frates is standing by in Colorado. | 克里斯·弗雷茨在科罗拉多州为您带来最新情况 |
| [1:38:56] | This is huge for, uh, Colorado, Wolf. | 沃夫 这对科罗拉多州而言意义重大 |
| [1:38:58] | This is the first time a Republican has won | 这是共和党自2002年以来第一次 |
| [1:39:01] | the Senate race state-wide in Colorado since 2002. | 在科罗拉多州拿下参议院席位 |
| [1:39:05] | Big night for Colorado, | 这是科罗拉多州的重要一夜 |
| [1:39:06] | and a big night for control of the United States Senate. | 也是两党争夺参议院控制权的重要一夜 |
| [1:39:12] | She’s expecting you. | 她在等你 |
| [1:39:15] | So, I just got a call | 我刚刚接到 |
| [1:39:17] | from Secretary of State Kerry. | 国务卿克里的来电 |
| [1:39:20] | He thinks that, with the release of the report, | 他认为这份报告的公布 |
| [1:39:23] | that the coalition against ISIL could collapse. | 打击伊斯兰国的同盟将会瓦解 |
| [1:39:28] | Isn’t that a bit convenient? | 时机选的真好 |
| [1:39:29] | – He calls you just before… – Dan. | -他在这个时候打给你… -丹 |
| [1:39:31] | Where did Kerry get his intel on this? The CIA? | 克里是从哪得知这个情报的 中情局吗 |
| [1:39:34] | – Is it credible? – Embassies could be attacked. | -可信吗 -我们的大使馆可能会受到袭击 |
| [1:39:37] | Hostages could be killed. | 人质可能会被杀害 |
| [1:39:38] | It’s just another stall tactic. | 这不过是另一种拖延战术罢了 |
| [1:39:42] | He suggested giving the report to the president, | 他建议把报告交给总统 |
| [1:39:45] | so that it could be released later, when hostilities cease. | 这样报告就能在事态平稳下来后公布 |
| [1:39:49] | You lose control of the committee in a week, Senator. | 参议员 你在一周后就将失去对委员会的掌控 |
| [1:39:51] | Yes, I am aware of what happens | 是的 我很清楚共和党人占多数后 |
| [1:39:53] | when the Republicans are in the majority, Dan. | 会出现什么情况 丹 |
| [1:39:58] | Look, I want to get this report out as much as anyone, | 我也很想公布这份报告 |
| [1:40:01] | but I have known him a long time. | 但我和他相识很久了 |
| [1:40:04] | I tend to believe him. | 我倾向于相信他 |
| [1:40:05] | Nobody else is gonna tell this story. | 没人会公布这件事的 |
| [1:40:07] | – Dan, the senator has a luncheon. – If we stop now, | -丹 参议员还要参加午宴 -如果我们现在停手 |
| [1:40:08] | aren’t we a part of the cover-up? | 我们不就成了掩盖这件事的同谋吗 |
| [1:40:10] | Strong pills, Senator? | 不是说要强势吗 参议员 |
| [1:40:21] | I think you should go home and get some rest. | 我觉得你应该回家好好休息 |
| [1:40:25] | You look tired. | 你看着很疲惫 |
| [1:40:28] | Marcy, if I could have five minutes. | 玛茜 等我五分钟 |
| [1:40:31] | Of course. | 没问题 |
| [1:40:42] | 帕涅塔审查报告 最高机密 敏感信息隔离 | |
| [1:40:42] | 委员会对中情局拘留和审讯项目的调查报告 概要 机密 | |
| [1:42:11] | Did you ever meet a guy called Greg Craig? | 你见过一个叫格雷戈·克雷格的人吗 |
| [1:42:16] | Just in pa… White House counsel when Obama took office? | 见过…奥巴马上台时的白宫顾问吗 |
| [1:42:19] | – Just in passing. – Right. | -点头之交 -好吧 |
| [1:42:22] | So, right after he got elected, the president asked Craig | 总统当选后 让克雷格 |
| [1:42:26] | to come up with a plan to deal with | 想办法处理 |
| [1:42:28] | the aftermath of the torture program. | 酷刑项目带来的后果 |
| [1:42:30] | So, he got Secretary of Defense Gates, Janet Napolitano, | 于是他把国防部长盖茨 珍妮特·纳波利塔诺 |
| [1:42:33] | Hillary Clinton… serious people… in a room, | 希拉里·克林顿这些位高权重的人叫到房间 |
| [1:42:36] | and he asked for their recommendation. | 他征询他们的建议 |
| [1:42:39] | – And? – And the consensus was that | -然后呢 -然后他们的共识是 |
| [1:42:43] | the president should appoint an independent bipartisan commission | 总统应该任命一个独立的两党委员会 |
| [1:42:46] | into interrogations and detainee treatment, | 来调查审讯和被拘留者的待遇 |
| [1:42:49] | like a deep dive into what worked and what didn’t | 深入调查这一项目的效果 |
| [1:42:51] | and… who was responsible. | 以及责任人 |
| [1:42:55] | You know, like what they did after 9/11, | 就像他们在911事件后做的那样 |
| [1:42:56] | and like what you’ve been trying to do. | 就像你一直在做的事情那样 |
| [1:43:00] | So why didn’t they do that? | 那他们为什么没有这么做 |
| [1:43:01] | Well, evidently, the president listened closely | 显然 总统认真听取了 |
| [1:43:04] | to the recommendation. | 他们的建议 |
| [1:43:06] | He then thought about it, and then he said no. | 他考虑了一下 然后拒绝了 |
| [1:43:11] | He’d spent an entire campaign saying he was post-partisan, | 他竞选期间一直声称自己持后党派立场 |
| [1:43:15] | so going after the Bush administration | 要清算布什政府的错误 |
| [1:43:17] | flew in the face of all that. | 与之对抗 |
| [1:43:19] | And right then, everyone in that room changed their minds. | 在那之后 那个房间里的每个人改变主意了 |
| [1:43:24] | They sided with the president: no independent commission. | 他们选择支持总统 不成立独立委员会 |
| [1:43:28] | Everyone except Craig, | 只有克雷格不同意 |
| [1:43:31] | because he thought it was too important. | 因为他认为这件事太过重要 |
| [1:43:34] | You couldn’t just torture people, | 你不能对人施以酷刑 |
| [1:43:37] | lie about it, and then hide it from history. | 隐瞒它 试图使其不为人知 |
| [1:43:41] | A few months later, Craig was gone, | 几个月后 克雷格辞职了 |
| [1:43:44] | and this mess wound up with the Senate. | 这个烂摊子落在了参议院 |
| [1:43:47] | And you. | 还有你的手里 |
| [1:43:49] | Well, the president must have known that, by doing that, | 总统肯定清楚他这么做 |
| [1:43:51] | he was making it next to impossible. | 会使调查变得几乎不可能 |
| [1:43:53] | He came from the Senate. | 他之前当过参议员 |
| [1:43:56] | Dan, they sent you off to build a boat, | 丹 他们派你造了一艘船 |
| [1:43:59] | but they had no intention of sailing it. | 但他们并不打算让它出海 |
| [1:44:02] | They probably didn’t think you’d get as far as you did. | 他们可能都没想到你能走到今天这步 |
| [1:44:09] | Let me ask you a question. | 回答我一个问题 |
| [1:44:11] | If the CIA knew that torture didn’t work, | 如果中情局知道酷刑没有用 |
| [1:44:15] | why did they continue to do it? | 他们为什么要一直用它 |
| [1:44:18] | After 9/11, everyone was scared… | 911事件后 每个人都担惊受怕 |
| [1:44:23] | …scared it might happen again, | 害怕这样的事情还会发生 |
| [1:44:25] | and the CIA would be blamed if it did. | 如果发生了 中情局将会受到责难 |
| [1:44:27] | Or maybe they were ashamed. | 或许他们感到羞愧 |
| [1:44:29] | You know, how come the most sophisticated | 世界上最出色的 |
| [1:44:31] | intelligence organization on Earth | 情报组织怎么会 |
| [1:44:33] | couldn’t keep its own people safe? | 连自己的人民都保护不了 |
| [1:44:36] | But fear and shame don’t make for better policy decisions, | 但恐惧和羞愧不会造就更好的政策决定 |
| [1:44:39] | and the fact that the people who we captured | 而我们抓到的人 |
| [1:44:40] | didn’t look like us or believe the same things we do | 与我们的长相不同 信仰不同 |
| [1:44:43] | made it that much easier to do the things we did. | 使对他们使用酷刑变得容易多了 |
| [1:44:45] | So once the CIA program started, | 所以中情局的项目一启动 |
| [1:44:47] | they had to keep telling people it worked, | 他们就得一直告诉人们这是有效的 |
| [1:44:48] | even if it wasn’t true. | 即使事实并非如此 |
| [1:44:49] | Their own position was that if it didn’t work, it was illegal. | 他们自己的立场是如果无效 就是非法的 |
| [1:44:53] | So they misrepresented the results. | 所以他们歪曲了结果 |
| [1:45:08] | If we had your report, we would print it tomorrow. | 如果能拿到你的报告 我们明天就会印刷出来 |
| [1:45:13] | All of it. | 一字不漏 |
| [1:45:16] | The senator said she would release a summary of the report. | 参议员说她会公布报告的摘要 |
| [1:45:19] | Really? | 真的吗 |
| [1:45:20] | Over the objections of the CIA and the White House? | 在中情局和白宫的反对下 |
| [1:45:22] | You really think that’s gonna happen? | 你真的以为这会发生吗 |
| [1:45:23] | If I gave it to you, what would happen? | 如果我给了你 会发生什么 |
| [1:45:33] | Some people will think you’re a hero, | 有些人会认为你是英雄 |
| [1:45:34] | and some will probably think you’re a traitor. | 而有些人大概会认为你是卖国贼 |
| [1:45:37] | Look at Edward Snowden. | 爱德华·斯诺登就是如此 |
| [1:45:49] | No. If it’s gonna come out, | 不 如果要公布 |
| [1:45:50] | it’s gonna come out the right way. | 只能以正确的方式公布 |
| [1:45:53] | What if it doesn’t? | 如果没能公布呢 |
| [1:45:55] | Then I didn’t do my job. | 那我就没尽到职责 |
| [1:46:00] | I’m sorry. | 抱歉 |
| [1:46:02] | Sorry. | 抱歉 |
| [1:46:50] | So, with the Affordable Care Act behind us, | 搞定了平价医疗法案后 |
| [1:46:53] | the president would like to | 总统想要 |
| [1:46:54] | begin a serious discussion about immigration reform. | 认真探讨移民改革事宜 |
| [1:46:57] | Now, obviously we’ve had some setbacks | 显然我们现在在两院 |
| [1:46:59] | in both the House and the Senate, | 遇到了一些挫折 |
| [1:47:02] | so strategy has become paramount… unity as well. | 所以策略是至关重要的 以及团结 |
| [1:47:05] | So, we would like to really start talking about… | 所以我们想认真探讨一下… |
| [1:47:08] | Excuse me, Mr. McDonough. | 打断一下 麦克唐纳先生 |
| [1:47:10] | I would like to discuss the report on the CIA | 我想讨论一下关于中情局的调查报告 |
| [1:47:12] | and the White House’s position. | 以及白宫对此的立场 |
| [1:47:14] | That’s not the topic of this particular caucus. | 这不是这场会议的议题 |
| [1:47:17] | The president would like to discuss… | 总统愿意讨论… |
| [1:47:18] | Our country did things the Nazis did, | 我国做了纳粹做过的事 |
| [1:47:21] | things that made us condemn other regimes. | 那些让我们谴责其他政权的事 |
| [1:47:24] | And the position of this administration | 这届政府的立场 |
| [1:47:27] | is to suppress this information, | 是隐瞒这个信息 |
| [1:47:28] | to keep the people who did these things safe? | 来保护那些做了这些事的人吗 |
| [1:47:30] | I can assure you that is not | 我可以向你保证这不是 |
| [1:47:32] | the position of this administration, Senator. | 这届政府的立场 参议员 |
| [1:47:34] | You worked with John Brennan | 你和约翰·布伦南 |
| [1:47:36] | at the National Security Council. | 在国家安全委员会共事过 |
| [1:47:38] | Now, I understand that Brennan gave this president | 我知道布伦南在总统上任后 |
| [1:47:41] | his first security briefing when he took office. | 向他做了第一次安全简报 |
| [1:47:43] | And now CIA Director Brennan | 现在中情局的布伦南局长 |
| [1:47:45] | is working closely with the president on the drone program. | 在无人机项目上与总统紧密合作 |
| [1:47:49] | You know, it’s funny. | 好笑的是 |
| [1:47:50] | Every time I go over to the CIA, | 我每次去中情局 |
| [1:47:52] | they claim I’m doing the Senate’s bidding, | 他们都说我替参议院办事 |
| [1:47:53] | and every time I come here, | 而我每次来这里 |
| [1:47:55] | you claim I’m doing the CIA’s bidding. | 你们都说我替中情局办事 |
| [1:47:56] | I only have a few days left in my term here, | 我的任期只剩下几天了 |
| [1:48:00] | and if there isn’t a plan to release the report before I go, | 如果在我离任前没有公布报告的计划 |
| [1:48:04] | I’m prepared to read it on the floor of the Senate. | 我准备好在参议院的台上把报告读一遍了 |
| [1:48:07] | And either the White House | 到那时只能白宫 |
| [1:48:08] | or the Republicans will have to stop me. | 或共和党人来阻止我了 |
| [1:48:10] | What would you have us do? | 你想我们怎么做 |
| [1:48:12] | Now, we go after Bush and Cheney on this, | 如果我们现在追究布什和切尼的责任 |
| [1:48:14] | what’s to prevent the Republicans | 要如何阻止共和党 |
| [1:48:15] | from coming back at us and trying to repeal health care? | 报复我们 废止医保呢 |
| [1:48:19] | We go after the CIA, uh, maybe they say, | 我们如果追究中情局的责任 他们可能会说 |
| [1:48:22] | “Okay, well, immigration reform is off the table.” | “那好吧 移民改革不予讨论” |
| [1:48:25] | Maybe it’s gun control. | 他们或许会针对控枪议题 |
| [1:48:27] | Now, democracy is messy… | 民主确实是一团乱麻 |
| [1:48:31] | but let’s just think | 但仔细想想 |
| [1:48:32] | how many countries there are in the world | 世界上有几个国家 |
| [1:48:35] | where a report like this could even get done. | 会允许编写这样的报告 |
| [1:48:42] | I would like us to be more than the country that did the report. | 我想让我国不仅仅允许编写报告 |
| [1:48:45] | I’d like us to be the country that made it public. | 我想让我国允许公布报告 |
| [1:48:48] | And that is what I intend to see happen. | 这才是我希望看到的结果 |
| [1:48:53] | I yield the floor to the senior senator from California. | 有请来自加州的资深参议员发言 |
| [1:49:11] | Over the past six years, | 在过去的六年里 |
| [1:49:13] | a small team of investigators pored over | 一个调查小组仔细研读了 |
| [1:49:16] | more than 6.3 million pages of CIA records | 超过630万页中情局记录 |
| [1:49:21] | to complete this report. | 以完成这份报告 |
| [1:49:24] | It shows that the CIA’s actions a decade ago | 调查表明中情局十年前的行为 |
| [1:49:28] | are a stain on our values and on our history. | 是我国价值观和我国历史上的污点 |
| [1:49:32] | The release of this 500-page summary | 这份五百页报告摘要的公布 |
| [1:49:35] | cannot remove that stain, | 没法清除这个污点 |
| [1:49:37] | but it can and does say to our people and the world | 但它能够告诉我国以及世界人民 |
| [1:49:41] | that America is big enough to admit when it’s wrong | 美国足够强大 足以承认自己的错误 |
| [1:49:46] | and confident enough to learn from its mistakes. | 足够自信 足以吸取过去的教训 |
| [1:49:49] | Releasing this report is an important step toward | 公布这份报告是重塑我们的价值观 |
| [1:49:53] | restoring our values and showing the world | 以及向世界展示我们是一个 |
| [1:49:56] | that we are, in fact, a just and lawful society. | 公正的法治社会的重要一步 |
| [1:50:01] | There are those who will seize upon the report and say, | 会有人利用这份报告 大肆宣扬 |
| [1:50:05] | “See what the Americans did?” | “看看美国人干的好事” |
| [1:50:08] | And they will try to use it | 他们会利用这份报告 |
| [1:50:10] | to justify evil actions or to incite more violence. | 来为他们的恶行辩护 或煽动更多的暴力 |
| [1:50:15] | We cannot prevent that. | 我们没法阻止这一点 |
| [1:50:17] | But history will judge us | 但历史会评判 |
| [1:50:19] | by our commitment to a just society governed by law | 我们维护公正的法治社会的承诺 |
| [1:50:24] | and the willingness to face an ugly truth | 我们面对丑陋真相的意愿 |
| [1:50:27] | and say “Never again.” | 以及保证”决不再犯” |
| [1:50:31] | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| [1:50:32] | I now yield the floor to the senator from Arizona. | 现在有请来自亚利桑那州的参议员 |
| [1:50:38] | What might come as a surprise | 令人惊讶的是 |
| [1:50:40] | is how little these practices did to aid our efforts | 这些酷刑在将911事件的 |
| [1:50:43] | to bring 9/11 culprits to justice and | 罪魁祸首绳之以法 |
| [1:50:46] | to find and prevent terrorist attacks today and tomorrow. | 以及防止现在和未来的恐怖袭击上几乎毫无作用 |
| [1:50:50] | That could be a real surprise, | 这令人瞠目结舌 |
| [1:50:52] | since it contradicts the many assurances | 因为这与情报职员 |
| [1:50:54] | provided by intelligence officials, | 公开和私下的很多承诺 |
| [1:50:57] | on the record and in private, | 互相矛盾 |
| [1:50:57] | 参议院对于中情局审讯的调查报告 约翰·麦凯恩参议员 | |
| [1:50:59] | that enhanced interrogation techniques were indispensable | 他们声称强化审讯技术在反恐战争中 |
| [1:51:03] | in the war against terrorism. | 是必不可少的 |
| [1:51:05] | I think it’s an insult to the many intelligence officers | 我认为断言我们不靠这种手段就没法赢得战争 |
| [1:51:08] | who have acquired good intelligence | 对于很多情报职员来说是一种侮辱 |
| [1:51:10] | without hurting or degrading prisoners | 他们没有伤害或侮辱囚犯 |
| [1:51:12] | to assert we can’t win this war without such methods. | 就获取了可靠的情报 |
| [1:51:16] | Yes, we can, and we will. | 是的 我们能获胜 而且终将获胜 |
| [1:51:20] | But in the end, | 但到头来 |
| [1:51:22] | torture’s failure to serve its intended purpose | 酷刑没能实现其目的 |
| [1:51:24] | isn’t the main reason to oppose its use. | 不是反对使用酷刑的主要理由 |
| [1:51:28] | This question isn’t about our enemies; it’s about us. | 问题不在于我们的敌人 而在于我们自身 |
| [1:51:33] | It’s about who we were, who we are, and who we aspire to be. | 在于我们过去和现在是怎样 以及渴望变成怎样 |
| [1:51:38] | It’s about how we represent ourselves to the world. | 在于我们向世人展现什么样的形象 |
| [1:51:42] | Our enemies act without conscience. | 我们的敌人丧失良知 |
| [1:51:45] | We must not. | 我们决对不能 |
| [1:51:50] | Senator Dianne Feinstein today | 黛安·范斯坦参议员于今日 |
| [1:51:52] | exposed the CIA’s now extinct | 揭露了中情局已经不再使用的 |
| [1:51:54] | enhanced interrogation techniques. | 强化审讯技术 |
| [1:51:57] | The thing that strikes me about | 参议院今天的所作所为 |
| [1:51:58] | what the Senate was doing today… | 打动我的地方在于 |
| [1:52:00] | Dianne Feinstein, Jay Rockefeller… | 黛安·范斯坦 杰伊·洛克菲勒 |
| [1:52:02] | is they were doing everything they can | 他们竭尽所能 |
| [1:52:04] | to make sure this doesn’t happen again. | 确保这种事情不再发生 |
| [1:52:06] | Because by going public like this… | 因为像这样将其公开… |
| [1:52:08] | Dan. | 丹 |
| [1:52:11] | You did well. | 干得很好 |
| [1:52:12] | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| [1:52:15] | Thank you. | 谢谢 |
| [1:52:17] | “We’re gonna be on you if you try to do this.” | “如果你想这么做 我们不会放过你的” |
| [1:52:46] | 2015年 奥巴马总统签署了麦凯恩-范斯坦宪法修正案 禁止中情局使用强化审讯技术 | |